Lipstick what is the reason that women (the old fashioned type) wear it.

[Karensalright]

Just that really

I suspect they meant vulvas, not vaginas. It's not an established fact, but more of a theoretical observation since we cannot go back in time and observe early humans.

Apes and monkeys can walk on two legs but usually move around on all fours. When females are 'in heat', I think in some species the vulva swells up and looks more red and prominent to attract the attention of males.

Humans eventually evolved to be bipedal, with the inadvertent consequence of not being able to easily see a woman's vulva. Humans also started wearing clothes, which compounds the problem.

So some scientists postulate that lipstick, specifically red or pink lipstick, triggers something primal in terms of sexual attraction - a way to signify a woman might be open to male attention.
Books and films reinforce this idea by a woman getting dressed up to go on a nice date and always wears red lipstick etc but it could also be a form of cultural marketing. Who knows.

In some situations, make-up is expected
In general, men do not do this
So women spend time and money on make-up when men do not.

I think if society changed to more fully reflect that make-up is a choice for both men and women, that would be beneficial for women. I don't think we're there yet, though.

If make-up is expected for women then it's not a free choice. But I'm not sure when this happens. I don't think I've ever been anywhere where I have had a comment made to me about not wearing make-up (apart from comments made by close friends or family).

You might be expected to wear make-up at work- to "look smart" or "look professional". You might be expected to wear make-up for an interview, your wedding, for award parties, even just a night out with friends

I was once told to sort out my frizzy hair by a younger man if I wanted an interview - not quite the same, but same ballpark.

And expectations don't necessarily mean comments..if you didn't get a job because you were less "well-groomed", you wouldn't necessarily be told that.

I look like death warmed up without lippy. Nothing to do with feminism lol

@NonnyMouse1337

"So some scientists postulate that lipstick, specifically red or pink lipstick, triggers something primal in terms of sexual attraction - a way to signify a woman might be open to male attention."

There are no scientists postulating this. Evolutionary psychology isn't science. It's bollocks. It can't be tested, and it can't be disproved. So it's not science.

How do men look smart, professional and well groomed? What does being smart, professional and well groomed have to do with wearing cosmetics?

You might be expected to wear make-up for an interview, your wedding, for award parties, even just a night out with friends

Expected by whom?

If it's my wedding, surely it's up to me what I wear. What would give anyone else the right to 'expect' me to do something I don't want to do on my wedding day? And what sort of friends expect you to do that just to be allowed to go out with them?

if you didn't get a job because you were less "well-groomed", you wouldn't necessarily be told that.

It never occurred to me that wearing stuff on my face would be a requirement for being 'well groomed'. What sort of jobs would that be expected for?

Why do I wear lipstick?

Because it's pretty and fun.

Feels moisturised and nourished.

And makes my teeth look nice.

If it's the only makeup I have on, I feel madeup and put together when I fancy it.

And feels sexy when I want!

Women during the war were actively encouraged to wear lipstick to raise their and others' morale. 'Beauty is your Duty' was a thing - fascinating article below.

Women who couldn't get lipstick would wet their finger, rub it over a red fabric book cover and use the dye to colour their lips.

Wodaabe men wear makeup to impress women.

Ancient Egyptians and Romans wore it.

Georgian ladies and gentlemen wore it.

It's always been there.

https://www.waterstones.com/blog/beauty-is-your-duty-red-lipstick-an-official-weapon-of-wwii

That stuff about lipstick in Belsen made me catch my breath. It makes total sense. How awful.

I have never worn any kind of make-up to work or job interviews. But then I work in a techie, computing field and we are all nerds with poor social skills. 😅
Some of my female colleagues do look like they wear a bit of makeup, but it's very low key.

Maybe other sectors are different. I imagine these days it's discriminatory for employers to stipulate makeup for women staff? I would be pissed off if I didn't get jobs or promotions because I didn't use it. I dress appropriately and comb my hair. Just like my male colleagues.

In this case, could you not design an experiment to examine under MRI which parts of the brain respond to differing stimuli?

@moderate no. There’s no experiment you could design to provide evidence for the theory that women wear lipstick due to their upright posture preventing a clear view of their vulvas. All your MRI experiment would show is that some modern-day humans like lipstick. And vulvas.

Our ancestors started walking upright over 2 million years ago. There is no evidence that I’m aware of in the fossil record of lipstick providing a mate selection advantage shortly after the transition to bipedal movement.

I've never got on well with lipstick- I have thin lips and it just seems to wipe off very quickly or smear round my lips. My eyes are my best feature so when I'd bother with make up I've always emphasised them and just put lip balm on my lips

I like lipstick, but not strong colours. And I have fine lips so it seems to rub off in two shakes. I like to accentuate my eyes more. Because it is fun and I like how it looks.

I can't speak for lipstick, like others I've heard it's about either being flushed or to mimic "other" lips.
As for a full face, I don't know for certain but I saw a video recently by a dermatologist who said historically "clearness or smoothness" of the skin was tied into what type of person you were on the inside.
So if you had smooth clear skin, you were a good person, but if you had marks, colouration, scars, moles, warts etc you'd be more likely to be seen as a bad or untrustworthy person on the inside - I think from memory there were also connections to witchcraft that he made etc

As for me personally, I don't always go full face, if anything I don't wear makeup as often as I did as a teen, but when I do it's typically to cover up the red and dry skin I get on my cheeks from crying so damn much.
If not that, it's also because I want to feel better about myself. Confidence issues etc.

We know they had pigments and that they were capable of pictorial representation at least as far back as the era of cave paintings. We also know that isolated communities in extremely remote areas today sometimes use various means of enhancing physical appearance - piercings, tattoos, and the like - as tribal or group markers and denoting sex, status, and other attributes of an individual. Otzi, the unfortunate glacier man, had a number of tattoos.

It's very possible that some lip coloring was done to exaggerate the contrast between the lips and the teeth - a full set of healthy gnashers would likely have been a sign of youth and strength in many societies. The Ainu of Hokkaido, Sakhalin, and the far eastern islands of Russia tattooed women's lips, though the tattoos were applied to ward off evil spirits. The Maori and Inuit people also had facial tattoos that served various functions, applied to both men and women. In some North African and Middle Eastern societies, facial tattooing is restricted to women only, and is / was done to enhance beauty.

Men make other 'personal choices'. Throughout history, men have been as much slaves to fashion as women have. There have been times when men's fashions have been drab and plain, but they are fashions all the same.

We all live according to certain codes.

Because I'm too stupid to realise that I'm only wearing it to sexualise myself by reminding men of my genitals. I'm so unaware that i think i find it aesthetically pleasing, when the reality is I'm doing it to be an ornament for the male gaze. I cake it, plaster it and smear it, that toxic chemical infested muck, all over my lips with careless abandon. The fact that all the younger women who wouldn't otherwise have worn it, are now looking at my middle aged face and thinking they should do it too to look just like me, which makes me a bad influence and perpetuates their inequality, bothers me not at all. Because I'm too stupid to know it.
Am I right...?

Are you on the sauce OP?

@Karensalright

I can confirm I was referring to a Ricky Gervais skit when saying “old fashioned women”.

Well, that was about as clear as mud. For anyone who hasn’t seen that quite obscure reference, your grammar indicated that that you were calling women who wear lipstick old fashioned. We aren’t all mind readers.

Some people seem to have taken serious offence to my question, don't, know why.

The title of your thread rubbed me up the wrong way, for reasons indicated above. Other posters feel the same.

Your subsequent posts are very abrupt and as a result come across as quite rude. As a result, people will match your tone. It’s a problem with communication style.

I'd be concerned if my lower lips were purple.

Its societal expectation. You are never going to be judged harshly for not wearing make-up but you will be generally judged beneficially for wearing it. No one will say anything but people will trust you slightly more, respect you slightly more, react more positively to you. I remember years ago an experiment being done and it was to do with change left in a phone box - people were more honest and more likely to return the change to women wearing make-up. Its just subtle things but they all add up to women who wear make-up just having that edge in society, and yes it could well make the difference between being offered a job or not, all other things being equal.

Yes, which is why it's a feminist issue: men aren't trusted less if they don't put makeup on. Though they're probably trusted less if they do...

That aside, odd that altering one's appearance rather than looking natural makes people trust one more!

FWIW I think the idea lipstick is to mimic labia is bollocks.

I think it’s hugely sexist to downgrade something mainly women enjoy to trivial or unnecessary or worthless. Even now men groom themselves and it seems unremarkable. Your average bloke will have his hair cut, even if he doesn’t style it and likes to keep it simple he’s not simply letting it grow. (Obviously some men, depending on their music tribes or even religion will have long hair.)

This is not an attack on any posters, it’s a societal thing- women like make up- make up is frivolous- women are frivolous. Is make up seen this way for itself ( and if so why are neat beards, aftershave, being clean shaven etc not scrutinised?) or because it’s generally women using it?

Btw there’s some really interesting posts on this thread.

Personally I love different looks for different situations.
When I’m at home or just out doing chores I don’t wear any make up.
The days I’m in the office it’s minimal just a bit of tinted moisturiser mascara and lip gloss.
A casual meet I wear a bit more than to the office and for a night out I do a full face using different colours on my eyes and lips depending on my outfit and where I’m going.

Iim not ashamed or apologetic for loving my different looks - it’s certainly not anti feminist to glam up when the mood takes us.

Its not anti feminist to wear make-up. Its not anti feminist to like different looks but it is a feminist issue that women are perceived slightly differently depending on if they are wearing make-up or not.