Sexist and dangerous Samaritans ad

[Meadowbird]

https://twitter.com/samaritans/status/1760599123923722266

A really bizarre ad - encouraging lone women to approach disturbed men on deserted train station platforms and ask them out for a coffee. What could possibly go wrong? They also will become sexier if they do apparently.

Here's a link to the latest England and Wales statistics. I haven't got any particular point to substantiate by linking. I just thought it was very interesting. Especially the relatively small number of deaths by jumping (compared with the overwhelmingly more common methods of hanging and poisoning) and also the astonishing regional variations - London having the lowest rate in England and waaay fewer deaths than the north east, for example.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/suicidesintheunitedkingdom/2022registrations

Two seperate things.

A.The rank misogyny of the advert.

B.The fact that having a quick chat with someone can distract them from a destructive thought pattern.

Just because B is true, doesn't negate A.

Yes, surely the six men per day figure relates to all male suicides, not just jumping in front of a train or off a bridge?

I never bothered reporting being grabbed, groped, or forcibly kissed by strange men because I knew perfectly well that it would not be taken seriously. Even more so with being verbally barracked or flashed at. The fact that I didn't report it does not mean it didn't happen with monotonous regularity through my life from my mid teens on, (despite all the usual precautions of avoiding isolated spaces, not being out alone late at night, never making eye contact with a strange man etc etc etc) and does not mean I'd willingly put myself in a situation where it would happen again.

“According to the Crime Survey for England and Wales for the year ending March 2020, 98% of people over the age of 16 who had been raped said the perpetrator was a man.

Women were more likely to be killed by a partner or ex-partner (32%) or someone else they knew (24%).

By contrast, just 13% of the women killed in the year ending March 2020 were attacked by a stranger.”

As far as I can find, that makes the number of women, murdered by a stranger (overwhelmingly a man) in 2020, about 14.

The 16-59 female population was about 16 million. I make that (and my math’s is admittedly very shaky) about 0.04% if you’re trying to get a number per day.

Which, I’m sure, will be of immense comfort to the families of those 14 women 😔

I should also add that another 30% of women’s murderers in the same year weren’t identified - so potentially more strangers hidden in that stat.

None of the three male members of my immediate family who died by suicide lacked supportive women (and men) trying to keep them going. They did all lack adequate professional metal health supports.

The last time I approached a man who was visibly distressed, he roared at me, and charged towards me, nearly fucking lamped me. Possibly Korsakoff's, or some kind of delusional mental illness. At any rate, I have learned my lesson and now would call the police for a welfare check, instead.

By contrast, just 13% of the women killed in the year ending March 2020 were attacked by a stranger.”

^As far as I can find, that makes the number of women, murdered by a stranger (overwhelmingly a man) in 2020, about 14.

As a pp alluded to, how do they define "someone they knew" and "a stranger"?

That advert is alarming. Why couldn't they have had a man helping a man and a woman helping a woman?

There are so many depressing replies on Twitter to women raising concerns saying when youre suicidal the last thing you re thinking about is asking a woman on a date or sexually assaulting them. Or they think women are saying all men are dangerous, which clearly isn't the case. Which all massively misses the point of how we are supposed to know which men are suicidal and which are just alone and quiet.

It's not like all the predators have a special sticker on their head. Its the same underlying issue. NAMALT - but some are, which is why we exercise caution.

Some men on twitter complaining that this is why they don't ask for help, which I find both sad and odd. Can they not ask men for help? If not, why is that and why is that women's problem?

The delightful India W has waded in banging on about gender critical people. I'm not sure why. This is about sex and nothing about gender.

I reported one out of numerous and never again because the effort of trying to remember with as much accuracy as possible until the police could be bothered to come and take a statement was really traumatic.

Since the police won't protect women by taking assaults that are reported seriously, then why take the risk of approaching a man who looks agitated? I want to save my risk taking for activities that benefit me, like going for walks, parking my car and visiting health professionals.

That's the number of murders, though, paterpower. Not the number of attacks. I don't imagine that the fear of murder is at the core of women's uncertaintly about approaching a strange man. It would be the fear of a whole load of lesser forms of harm.
Though actually what I dislike most about the ad isn't the issues around women's safety. It is the strangeness of the whole concept. While it probably is true in some sense that 'small talk saves lives', I imagine that the core significance of small talk isn't in that just-before-you-jump moment, but in the whole quality of a person's life in the days, weeks, months, years leading up to a suicidal impulse.
In the actual emergency situation, what is needed is big talk - ie "Are you ok? Can I get help for you?" That's why the words the woman speaks are so inappropriate - they are trying to shoehorn their smalltalk hashtag into a scenario that belongs in another ad campaign altogether.
The small talk hashtag needs another scenario .. Eg an ordinary anonymous encounter at a checkout, with neither party about to kill themselves but one or both of them looking lonely or sad.

Did you know that more women than men attempt suicide? I know we hear a ton more about male mental health than we do for women, but women are not just emotional support for men

NC for this.

I'm a tube station supervisor in West London. I often have to manage the day to day events on my station by myself. To confirm, I'm a woman who works all the shifts and have done for the past nine years. I've worked for TfL for over 20 years.

I have dealt with more than one suicide during my time on the Tube.

I have several problems with this ad, especially as it's the Samaritans, with whom we work with for training & for aftercare for our vulnerable customers.

1. Oh heavens it's sexist. Agree on the two responses by the woman. The "mean" one looking less put together than the "kind" one. Also, the assumption that a woman is more suited than the care giver role than a man.

If I spot someone in an unusual place or exhibiting strange behaviour I am not going to "be kind". It's not my style. I usually just march up to them, say, "Are you alright love?" and we go from there. If they ask why I asked I say, well, you keep walking up to the yellow line, ir whatever it was that piqued my interest.

1. The coffee thing. Absolutely NOT. I never use small talk or ask about the weather or if they've tried the new coffee place around the corner. It's just weird.

1. Why are the men in these ads always look the same? Wrinkly faces, looking so sad, head in hands blah blah. Most of out PERSONS UNDER TRAINS do not look like that. Some even look happy or calm. Most touch their cards on the reader, sit down, then calmly walk towards the edge. They are black, white, Asian, wearing suits, jeans and trainers, boiler suits or anything really. We were told to look for people in hospital garments or anything odd, even though psychiatric units don't issue these things. It really can't be predicted, unless it's obvious.

1. If you don't feel comfortable approaching someone, then don't. Find a member of staff or ring 999.

1. The reason I can approach someone who might be vulnerable is because I have a radio, a mobile phone, a body worn camera and CCTV. On the radio I have a panic button. If I become unsafe I can summon help within minutes. Lone women waiting for trains at empty stations don't have this back-up.

1. The most wonderful interaction I saw was when a male member of my team encouraged a crying male customer off the platform to safety. The empathy was amazing. It was two blokes discussing the football by the end. I still had to ring the authorities etc but my colleague was so good at distracting him and having that brotherly camaraderie with the man, and I think it really helped. I think the Samaritans need to highlight that more. Men helping men.

Thank you, NoLightNoLight. That's a thoughtful and very enlightening comment.

I wonder if you would consider writing to the Samaritans with what you've posted here?

Overall, I get the feeling this advert is more about compelling women to behave a certain way than it is about helping suicidal men.

That's the number of murders, though, paterpower. Not the number of attacks. I don't imagine that the fear of murder is at the core of women's uncertaintly about approaching a strange man. It would be the fear of a whole load of lesser forms of harm.

Totally agree with you! I was trying to dig around the ONS stat that a PP upthread was trying to use to make the fear of approaching a man seem like it’s just silly to think a woman would be in any danger at all.

She quoted a percentage stat which other posters questioned, so I was bored enough to see if I could pin down what the figure represented :-)

Brilliant post, NoLightNoLight, thank you for that insight.

Repeating BMJ paper about previous Samaritan campaign on similar theme.

This is the first empirical study to examine the role of passing strangers in preventing suicides in public places. It shows that no specialist skills are needed. Interveners were ordinary people, distinguished only by a high level of social awareness, combined with a readiness for social action. The findings also suggest that people do not need a script and should not be afraid of saying ‘the wrong thing.’ What interveners said was much less important than how they made the suicidal person feel, namely safe, connected and validated (‘I matter’). Interveners did this simply by being themselves, responding with authenticity, calmness and compassion. Members of the public need to be encouraged to recognise and reach out to those who may be at risk of suicide in public locations, but should be prepared for a prolonged and intense encounter that may leave them with troubling emotions.

Owens C, Derges J, Abraham C Intervening to prevent a suicide in a public place: a qualitative study of effective interventions by lay people BMJ Open 2019;9:e032319. doi: 10.1136/bmjopen-2019-032319

https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/bmjopen/9/11/e032319.full.pdf

It's helpful to read through the various scenarios and experiences the authors discuss.

In 2018, Network Rail in partnership with Samaritans launched a campaign entitled ‘Small Talk Saves Lives’, encouraging rail travellers simply to say ‘Hello’ and strike up a normal conversation if they are concerned about someone.28 Our data confirm that this campaign message is entirely appropriate as far as the initial approach to a vulnerable person is concerned. However, it fails to recognise the intense, prolonged and taxing nature of intervention, the complex juggling acts that interveners may have to perform in the course of trying to keep someone safe, and the troubling emotions they may be left with. It is no small thing to save a life. The conundrum for public education is how to prepare people adequately for the challenges they may face without deterring them from intervening.

It's striking that 6 years later, the public education and awareness of what's involved is still absent from the campaign.

What a lovely post, @NoLightNoLight. If I am ever feeling glum enough to need that kind of help, I hope I am at your station

Thank you for this post @NoLightNoLight

Thank you @NoLightNoLight thst was really helpful & enlightening

An interesting misuse of scale - 6 men sounds huge compared to 0.096% of women.

Well, there are about 34 million women in the UK. 0.096% is about 0.1% and 0.1% of 34 million is 34 000 women who are attacked by strangers (according to your figures which I haven't checked)

Or, if you prefer, there are 16 suicides (men only, Samaritans figures from ONS for England 2022 ) per 100 000 people, which is 0.016%, which is more than 5x smaller than the 0.096% of women who are attacked.

Lies, damned lies, and statistics.

In the final frame you see a man in an orange tabard (alluding to be station sraff).but he just stands there whilst the woman asks him where she can get a coffee. So what's he doing? Just watching? Why isn't he asking the woman what's going on?

Ace statisticking, @AmaryllisNightAndDay . Thanks.

Also, the overwhelming preponderance of certain suicide methods seems to suggest that not many suicides take place somewhere public. I think the figures for jumping were about 3-5% of suicides. So that also changes the balance of harms versus benefits of an interaction.

Woman's job to do the soothing and nice chat. His job to stand about and look important.