My son can tell...

[allthevitamins]

Watching 'Inside the Factory' on BBC1 with DS, 10.

Cherry Healy was talking about lightbulbs with Dr Clara Barker, Materials Scientist.

Please note this is not personal in relation to Dr Baker.

Dr Barker is Transwoman.

DS says, 'is that a lady?'.

I say no, it's a man.

We left it at that.

I mean Dr Barker is quite feminine.

But unprompted, my DS knew that Dr Barker is not a woman.

Why should I have to lie to him about this?

agreed - all those things might happen - and is that not of itself an indication as to how serious this has become that a child who speaks the truth could be punished or 'face a world of hurt'

the only we that we will keep truth central to our society is for all decent people to defend it...

and no, that doesn't mean that the trans community are not decent people - there will always be people who 'feel' more masculine or 'feminine', who feel body dysphoria, who are confused over what they really are - they are the community we should support and help to live a great life - ideally society should be helping them to come to terms with that disconnect and find ways to live as the sex they were born but the shape of man or woman they want to be...

that is totally different to those who impose this on the rest of society, who threaten, degrade and impose on others - none of that is part of a 'decent society' we need to stand up against lies and mis-truths, against those who twist words, change meanings, who gaslight and threaten, who pervert decency and corrupt others, those who abuse and minimise their actions...

if you have a boy who claims to be a girl - that is not the truth, they can't be, never can be, so someone else referring to them as a boy is simply speaking the truth and we must support and enable that in schools, media and society generally.

If you have a teacher who is male but pretending to be female, that is not living a truth - it is a safeguarding issue, and while there may be accommodations to allow it to take place, any comeback on pupils who refer to them truthfully as male is a step too far

so yes, there may be a 'world of hurt' but that is a threat - "if you don't join me in supporting / sharing / telling my lie to others I will make sure you face a world of hurt" - is that acceptable behaviour from e.g. a teacher? Surely any teacher who said anything like that in any other way would be instantly suspended and face disciplinary charges - we must not have dual standards...

so yes - that may be the outcome, but we should not shy away from the truth and the more that adults tell children the truth and support them in the truth, the easier it will become - and the better society will be...

Totally agree, @akkakk .

But that’s the reason OP got tense about transwomen on TV at teatime, not dangerous extremism and bigotry, or whatever it was the PP suggested her discomfort was.

Thank you for understanding! That's exactly what I was trying to say!

How the heck can our kids navigate this when as ordinary parents (me) we haven't got the tools or language to articulate it?

I mean this isn't socially acceptable within my group of friends (as far as I know, I think we've avoided it) and me/DC have enough problems with school without starting a whole debate with the HT/governors on their curriculum on sex, gender and identity.

@pickledandpuzzled agreed - the trouble is though that this is deliberately truth being obfuscated - because the clear truth doesn't gain the end goal - Emperor's New Clothes etc.

And that makes it very hard for the millions of parents / carers / other adults whose job is to play a role in raising children - their own or others at school / uniformed organisations / sports / etc.

All they want to do is get on and teach good values and truths to the children - really not helped by the agendas we see out there...

How the heck can our kids navigate this when as ordinary parents (me) we haven't got the tools or language to articulate it?

by all adults coming together to support each other, so that those who can articulate it provide the words which will help, so that those who think they stand alone realise that they are part of a wide and strong community... mumsnet happens to be one place where that is happening - there will be others as well...

Great posts @akkakk

I hope you don't mind, but I've just pasted some of your work onto this thread :

Schools Guidance Consultation closes 12 of March - can we collate ideas for responding? | Mumsnet

Thank you @Leafstamp for sharing this thread with people who may be able to make a difference.

Seriously, I'm just an ordinary parent, with an ordinary job that doesn't involve safeguarding, so this is not my specialist area at all.

I'm very proud to have started this thread, and thankful to all of those who have contributed in a very plain-English, common sense, constructive way.

A lot of what is written/thought about/discussed in this area is very 'academic', jargon-y and whilst well-intentioned, a bit exclusionary to the general population in itself.

This thread has really helped me think things through, reassured me that I'm on the right path with my own family, and given me hope that there are people out there who care, understand, and can take action.

My ask is for plain-language, accessible output from all angles that engages the average parent, and underlines common sense, obvious and safety-focused approaches as the right thing to do.

They’re just going about their professional life. They’re not pushing any particular agenda; just existing. It comes across like a personal attack/targeted bullying and it’s uncalled for.

This person’s professional profile on their Oxford University website profile page contains one paragraph about their scientific work and two paragraphs about LGBT activism. So no, not just going about their profesdional life. Their professional life is one third scientist, two thirds trans activist.

You know what, I'm actually past caring. I do not care what pronouns someone wants me to use. I do not care if I upset them by using the wrong ones. I do not care. I don't care if it's rude.

We need to live in a world where people can say mildly uncontroversial things like 'that is a man wearing a dress' without it bringing on some kind of Mexican standoff and a knock on the door from the polis. We need to have society function in a way that works for everyone.

This bollocks tiptoeing about and agonising over whether this man wants she/hers or they/theirs or xie/xirs or if we shouldn't say that we think its creepy when a man wears fishnets and a leather bustier? To what end? It's not creating a kinder more tolerant society, is it? It's just creating apprehension, fear, confusion, sniping, resentment, angery, abuse, threats, power struggles, arguments and waffle.

Yeah. I'm done.

Totally agree.

Me too. It's the overreach that's done it for me. Targeting the most vulnerable of children, colonising women's sport, repeatedly breaching so many aspects of the social contract in every possible way. No boundaries, no respect for others or awareness of their vulnerabilities (espcially children).
No more.

Me three. Am totally done with it and will be speaking out more and more IRL about the harms of this awful ideology.

Where do you draw the line at what you think people (or children can say) without being rude. What if the following is factual:

-That boy is fat
-That girl is ugly
-That family's house is tiny and looks old
-That man's jumper smells horrible
-That boy has a lot of spots

Do you think that's alright to say?

Of course not.

We teach children not to be rude and not to hurt people's feelings!

With pronouns, people should try to use the desired pronouns, but I do not think that it should be a big deal if they accidentally fuck up. It certainly is rude to refer to Dr Barker as he, when it's clear Dr Barker wants to be referred to as she. Do it by accident - OK. Do it on purpose - rude.

Yes, I think million quid a year Sharon "go low" White and her nonsense at John Lewis reinforces how absolutely stupid people become over this.

All sense leaves their minds when they meet someone like "Ruby" and decide that we all have to submit to him.

Fuck her and the rest of the fools.

Barker is a rude man, he forces himself where he's not wanted.

Me as well.

As for Dr Clara Baker, I hadn't looked up that person's profile when I posted. It's never been about Dr Barker as such (although as PPs have shown, you only have to scratch the surface).

It's exactly about breaking... actually bulldozing the social contract, forcing innocent bystanders to be part of the charade, and for me, involving children in this whilst indoctrinating them to 'be kind - or else'.

Dress how you want, have whatever legal hobbies you want, love who you want (provided that's ok with the recipient), hell have whatever name you want.

But don't indoctrinate children, colonise women's spaces and hard-won rights, don't compel my speech or expect me to carry on some awful pretence just to make you feel better or give you an ego boost, and don't come at anyone with the 'poor me' despite your obvious male-born advantages.

I've hardly started... And I'm done.

Not hurting people's feelings has got us men in women's sport,
Women's language including in health, maternity and menopause being removed.
Adults watching silently while the most vulnerable of chidren (in care, autistic, mentally unwell and more) are specifically targeted and told that their bodies are flawed and that transitioning will fix them.
Babies being used for men to experiment feeding them male secretions

An endless torrent of male crimes attributed to women.
Every aspect of society being upended

Time to speak up.

Not a problem

Let’s consider those…
someone ugly is purely a subjective thing
all the others are purely temporal

so if someone is fat and they go around declaring that they are thin - I would be honest and say “actually no, you are overweight but let’s see if there is a way to become thinner…” fat and thin are on a scale and have moveable boundaries

but a man claiming to be woman never can be a woman - there is no overlap / no intermediary ‘nearly a woman’ position you can’t lose ‘essence of man’ and gain ‘essence of woman’ so it is totally different

Yep. Given the actual harms caused to women and children and society - I am okay with being rude on this subject now. I am not going to be polite in the face of coercion. No more. Sometimes playing silly etiquette games while wrong is being committed is not the right thng to do; doing politeness in the face of injustice can actually be the opposite of moral.

This is not a drill, as a wise.woman once said.

"I'd rather be rude than a fucking liar".

Rudeness is not good obviously - personally I can't abide it - and of course we shouldn't go round shouting 'fatty' at fat people or whatever. That's completely different from, say, a person with anorexia saying they shouldn't eat and that statement having to be agreed with. Or a person who's a male saying he's a female and having to be agreed with.

The conventions of politeness in every day society are based on reciprocity. We will be polite to each other. You can't demand politeness from me if your clothing and fake breasts mock me and you demand of me to disbelieve my eyes.

Dr Clara Barker is putting himself forward as a 'role model' in a science outreach project specifically for girls aged 11-14.

Fucking massive great red clanging safeguarding red flags.

Watch the video about 'meet some of our role models'.

Clara Barker was never a girl. He's using young female children for - at best - validation. Without the consent of them or their parents. For a SCIENCE programme when it's a scientific fact that sex is binary, that he's male and that he's never been a young female. He could just be involved in an outreach programme for boys and girls - some of them no doubt gender questioning. But no, he's targeting girls specifically by being involved here.

Safeguarding alerts galore.

https://www.physics.ox.ac.uk/engage/schools/secondary-schools/marie-curious

The Emperor has no clothes and has convinced all the adults who think they're so clever that he's wearing clothes so that he can flash all our children.

Safeguarding structures are under a deliberate attack and what with that and lack of funding in schools, parents really are the last line of safeguarding defence.

I would advise everyone read Gavin de Becker's Protecting the Gift: keeping children and teenagers safe. Spoiler alert - sex matters and instinct, intuition matters. We should be teaching our children to listen to how they feel when they feel fear, not tell them it's bigoted and they should suppress it. Teaching our children to trust their instincts and their senses is so important when it comes to safeguarding (it's not enough, but it's required) and we should not be prioritising the wants of strangers over the duty to tell our children the truth.

It's not even telling them the truth - they KNOW the truth already, they know the myriad differences between adult males and adult females. They can immediately see, just as dogs can smell the difference. It's about not denying the truth and lying to kids, and making them scared to speak their truth in order to appease a few narcissitic men.