Is this the answer? "N" toilets

[Justwrong68]

I saw these toilet signs in the Coal Drops area of Kings Cross. I assume the "N" is for neutral or non binary. I wondered what people's thoughts were, a solution? Or no difference?

Yeah all great until all the toilets stink of wee and there's piss all over the seats.

Mens toilets are generally disgusting. I don't want to share toilets with them regardless of the set up unless there's someone employed to clean them constantly which is never going to happen.

I feel uncomfortable having to queue for the loo with men, specially if there is a group of them. Very narrow space to get in or out of toilet cubicle will make for some very unsavoury proximity, specially young girls and creepy guys.

and cleanliness is also an easily avoidable inconvenience if we keep single sex toilets.

I am very happy with proper, separate single toilets, like the ones common in smaller cafes etc. But when cubicle banks are converted to these tiny rooms I find them horrible, like being in a coffin.

Cubicle banks exist for space considerations, so they are never really going to be the same as a real single toilet like a home.

A good idea for a lot of places, but some will not have space for three separate sorts of provision (plus meeting the needs of physically disabled people as well).

Others may notionally have the space (or at least the space to convert all toilets to fully individual units) but the costs of rebuilding would be prohibitive.

I used mixed sex public council toilet in a park today with my toddler. I felt so uncomfortable, the normal toilet building hadn’t changed at all, just the signage. I’m surprised at how violated I felt dispite not having a particularly difficult history with men, so I can only imagine how awful the experience is for other women. My toddler has a habit of opening the door and that’s not quite so terrible when it’s only other women there.

I’m pretty sure it doesn’t comply with the regs on mixed sex looks either… There were gaps under the walls between cubicles, clear windows above the door to the ceiling. There were no handwashing facilities so in the cubicles, and the handwashing facilities were two of those hole in the wall type things in a separate little space off the main room meaning you could be stuck washing your hands with a random bloke blocking your exit which is very dodgy from a safety perspective. And these are just toilets anyone can walk into from the street so it’s not like there are staff around like there could be in a theatre, restaurant etc if you shout for help.

I’m so incensed I have written to the council for the first time ever!

My toddler has a habit of opening the door

So long since I've had a toddler that I hadn't thought of this one!

And yet I know of a murder by a man of a woman which took place in a women's toilet which I used to use - never used it again after that. It was an attack by a complete stranger, & the poor woman was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Vanishingly rare, you say? Dream on.

One of the overriding issues expressed in this thread is the belief that all random men are a threat. I was bought up to be considerate towards others, I hold doors open for people, offer to help carry prams down steps, say hello to strangers, it really hurts that trying to do what I was told was manners is seen as being a pervert and a threat. Believe it or not , not all men fall into that category

Not all men are, no.

The problem for women, @Hijinks75, is telling which men are which.

Have you ever been in a women’s toilet? In public toilets there is wee all over the seat 70% of the time. There was a poll on here and over half the women would hover over the seat spraying urine everywhere.

Individual toilets everywhere would be amazing. Especially for me with IBD, I hate having to use the toilet right next to someone when the walls aren’t properly enclosed.

On holiday recently many of the toilets had the lock above the handle. Such a simple idea to put it out of reach of toddlers!!

@BrightGreenGoose I was followed to the toilet by a man I was on a date with. He forced himself into the cubicle behind me and tried to kiss me. I screamed and shouted and pushed him and luckily he went, but the toilets were on a different floor to the bar and nobody would have heard me screaming if he’d gone further.

And this was a very male presenting man who thought he had the right to force his way into the women’s toilets! The risk of predators dressed up as women ending up assaulting women has got to be so so much higher.

I have many many stories like that but I’m not going to list them all. You are coming from a place of enormous privilege if you have never even been made to feel uncomfortable by a man.

I would welcome a mixed sex toilet so I could continue to take my 8 year old son into the same bathroom(not cubicle) as me. He has adhd and is overly gregarious and very impulsive. At the minute he obviously uses the men's with me hovering anxiously outside but I hate it - particularly at motorway services where if there were any incident someone could be well away up the country before it came to light. If it were just me and my daughter however I would always use the women's bathroom.

Where did you get the idea that holding doors open (I do that), helping carry a pram (I do that), saying hello to strangers (I do that) is considered pervy or threatening? In and of itself, and provided you don't push if you don't get a response, it's not.

Nobody thinks all men are a threat. We all know decent men who are not in any way a threat. However, we have no way of knowing whether the man in our space is decent or whether he is a threat so keeping all men out of women's spaces protects us.

Attitudes like yours really piss me off. It's not all about you and how wonderful you and your manners are. You appear to have no understanding, or desire to understand, how vulnerable women are to male violence. Stay out of female spaces. Challenge men who are not respectful of female only spaces and who try to enter them. That would be much more helpful than moaning about your hurt feelings because we don't appreciate you holding the door open for us.

You haven't been reading properly. We recognise that any man could be a threat to women. Not that all men are a threat to women. We don't know which ones in advance.
And it's not just women's safety we're defending, it's our privacy and dignity.

Great that you were brought up to be considerate to others - I (a woman) also hold doors open, help with push chairs on public transport, let kids stand in front of me at parades etc etc. So I promise you that unless the door you are holding open is (for example) the door to a cubicle in the ladies', nobody will think you are a pervert just for showing consideration.
But I have a feeling you already know that.

So because NAMALT (and NAWALT for that matter) we shouldn't bother with safeguarding?

Because I wouldn't dream of harming a child or abusing an elder, I should be exempted from DBS checks?

Safeguarding is about thinking the unthinkable, not about giving the benefit of the doubt. Single sex toilets are as much a safeguarding issue as a dignity issue.

What a gentleman. Have a box of chocolates.

(Note, 20 of them are delicious Belgian chcolate, 2 are cocoa-dusted wasabi, 2 are coca- dusted shit, 1 is filled with cyanide. Enjoy.)

🙄 yes women talking about the very real threat to them from men, makes men like you feel bad, so we all must stop at once because you’re what’s important here.
No one said helping with a pram makes you look like a pervert, but your post sure does make you look like a drama queen.

Actually I have a lot of idea of how vulnerable women are to men’s violence and equally how vulnerable some men are to women’s violence, I actually apologise if my comment seemed to be about me and having manners, I was simply trying to say don’t judge us all the same, but your hostile response shows you do

And your response shows your complete lack of comprehension.

Not one woman on here has suggested all men are a threat. Not one woman on here has stated that female on male violence does not exist (although significantly lower instances than male on female violence). But yet you are still bleating away about how we tar you all with the same brush.

It also shows how little understanding you actually have of the vulnerabilities of women.

To compare how vulnerable women are to men's violence to how vulnerable some men are to women's violence is whataboutery to the nth degree. Men do not avoid walking alone at night because they are afraid they will be attacked by a woman. Men do not carry their keys in their hand in empty car parks to use as a weapon if they are attacked by a woman. Men do not have a system in place to ensure their male friends got home safely after a night out. Men do not avoid getting into a taxi alone with a female driver late at night. Etc., etc.

So no, you haven't a clue.

I'd go in there claiming to be 'N' just so it's cleaner! Chances are it'll never be used!

I like men that apologise and carry on making the same mistake. They have such good manners. The world will be a different place if we hold the door open for them whatever their dress code 🙄

Saw this story today and thought of this thread. Mixed sex toilets are not the answer.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-68368372

Exactly! I love and trust my Dad, my brother and my partner. But I am not remotely offended if other's don't and I wouldn't expect any other women to trust them.
How on earth are they to know?

And to the person who has never experienced and threat from men. That's terrific for you but wholly inappropriate for this thread. My god, in my field alone, we've just had a damning report about surgeons assaulting their trainees in the fucking operating theatre, with a patient unconscious lying there - that could be you!

How dare you come on here with your NAMALT bullshit.