Is this the answer? "N" toilets

[Justwrong68]

I saw these toilet signs in the Coal Drops area of Kings Cross. I assume the "N" is for neutral or non binary. I wondered what people's thoughts were, a solution? Or no difference?

They have mixed sex toilets at our local grammar school but the trans girls use the staff cubicle because they are scared of the boys. The girls have to put up and shut up.

Yes, it looks ideal. Except men who identify as women only want to be in the women's toilets for validation purposes (and other reasons). They do not want a neutral or third space and have made this clear over and over again.

As a sticking plaster it's better than nothing.

But fundamentally it's still a step backwards for women (female people) because it still validates the sexist and frankly batshit beliefs underlying the demand to choose your toilet (and other single sex provisions) based on your subjective and variable personal identify not your factual and unchangeable sex.

Those underlying beliefs being:

a) men and women are types of mind
b) the physical need of the fenale body have nothing to do with the existence of woman-only spaces, protections, supports and opportunities
c) how society treats people with female bodies has nothing to with the existence of women-only spaces, protections, supports and opportunities
d) women-only spaces, protections, supports and opportunties exist because of the needs of people with a women type of mind
e) a male person can be a women if he has the right type of mind

So, #BeKind or not, I'm uncomfortable supporting any solution that accepts the sexist belief that some men are different to other men because their minds are closer to a mythical womenmind.

Note, that doesn't mean I'm anti third spaces, or any number of spaces. If society wants to restructure itself based on personality type and trust people to correctly self-identify as "sort, harmless, a bit overemotional" or "mathmatical and lacking empathy" or even "uncomfortable with shades of yellow, prone to practical jokes, likes hats" that's something society could explore. Maybe there's a good case for it, maybe it will bring all sorts of benefits.

What I am anti is any attempt to redefine the facts of sex into a system based on sexist stereotypes.

I work in a Uni building with unisex toilets. They are filthy - wee on the toilet seats etc. single sex toilets much cleaner.

I was there today around that time and wondered if there really are 3 toilets. I'd find that an excellent solution

I wonder why it might be vanishingly rare to be be attacked in a toilet.

Could it be because of the established social norm that they are single-sex? What will happen when that rule has been fully destroyed?

It is still problematic for al lthe reasons above (smell/mess in mixed sex loos, difficulty in noticing someone having an emergency, anti-social behaviour in private cubicles), though I think it's a good idea for there to be a third space at least.

I was at the theatre recently where the toilets were labelled 'cubicles' and 'cubicles and urinals'. They were used invariably by women and men, as they always had been. People looked somewhat confused by the labels at first and had to check them both, then used the ones they always would have. The labels seemed entirely to appease anyone who didn't actually want to have the words 'men' or 'women' applied to them, but somehow still supported the idea of there being two different toilets to choose from. I guess it just means those - of whatever sex or identity - who don't want to see someone using a urinal, and those who want to use one or who don't care about seeing someone else using one. But doesn't matter about women who might want to use the cubicles room without having any men in there. In practice, it didn't seem to make any difference at the time/day I was there. I am sure a transwoman would have used that one or one labelled women, so I'm not sure what difference it makes, other than to anyone non-binary who wants to not be reminded of what they are by a sign on the door, but yet expects the convention of who uses each room to continue?!

I always use gender neutral, most women want to use the women's. Transwomen also want to use the women's. Men often have an issue with uding gender neutral. So the gender neutral tends to be quieter and cleaner.

I'm 40 years old and have never been made to feel uncomfortable by a man, let alone be assaulted by one.

Lucky you, @BrightGreenGoose I was first assaulted 43 years ago, and most recently flashed at yesterday.

Does nobody think mixed sex may lessen risk to women.
Women only toilet gives attacker some confidence that he will only be confronted by a woman. Whereas mixed sex he could end up confronted by some big bloke telling him where to go.

No because it suggests that there are 3 sexes when there are only two.

No, I don't. Not long ago, a woman was raped on a carriage of a British train. Other passengers filmed it. No men intervened.

By the way, I have never had a man intervene on my behalf when I was sexually harassed in a public place, although I have intervened to protect other women.

A lot of women do feel uncomfortable around those they perceive as male and I don't think saying 'well I'm ok because I have never been assaulted by a man' really helps anyone.

It's not an issue that can be solved with a cavalier handwave. I think enclosed unisex toilets are a possible option that works well in some circumstances but not all.

I don't know about the university you went to but in the one I work in, the "All gender" toilets are like that - large, individual cubicles with washing facilities inside.

Except in our case, it's not more toilets for everyone. They are the disabled toilets repurposed as all gender toilets. So yes, more toilets for the able bodied but a significant reduction in facilities for those with disabilities. I have actually seen a transwoman berate a person whose appearance was more gender conforming for using what the transwoman referred to as "my toilet".

Cubicles with washing facilities inside are also much slower and more likely to result in queues.

I agree with pp's. A third space would be great if we could be sure males would stay out of female facilities and if the 3rd space has not been taken from disabled or female facilities. I'll let men argue for whether they are bothered by their spaces being transformed into 3rd spaces.

Man who raped woman in front of other passengers on London underground jailed

My local indie cinema has 3 options. Men, women and mixed. (Acrually 4 spaces as there are also accessible toilets.)
I've only ever seen men go in the men's or mixed toilets.
The very vocal transwoman who always seems to be there uses the women's.

So effectively there are no women's toilets. They all have men in.

Did they have sanitary bins? I believe the companies responsible for emptying bins charge per bin, this is going to work out expensive if every toilet is equipped with one. And are emergency sanitary items available? Many womens toilets in public places have machines , so that in the absence of Dylan Mulvaney being available to helpfully hand out pads and tampons from his designer handbag , women can get hold of emergency sanitary supplies.

Also men piss on the floor and seat more often than women do.

WTF? Wish I hadn't seen that. I can't understand why nobody stopped him.

I expect it's the same as most cases where bystanders could have acted, but didn't.

First they probably doubted what they were seeing, and worried about making fools of themselves should they speak up. Perhaps it's just messing around between friends/a real couple, they think.

By the time they're certain that what's happening is unwelcome and that there is a victim, fear has had time to set in. Bystanders become too fearful for their own personal safety to act.

All the evidence shows that the vast majority of sexual assaults happen in mixed sex toilets and changing rooms. This has been explained many times on here.

When no man is permitted to use women's toilets then the presence of any man in them is a red flag that women can and will respond to.

When any man is permitted to use women's toilets there is no way women can tell whether or not he is a danger to them.

Men that want to break the social contact and enter women's toilets are precisely the ones who pose risks to women. How are we to tell which are the good ones? That's why they should all stay out.

Mixed sex loos with no gaps are problematic from a sexual assault angle, it would be incredibly difficult for a woman to escape if cornered. Lack of visibility and safety. Any space that is mixed sex carries a higher risk of sexual assault for women anyway

Cold Statistics show there are much much much higher rates of sexual assault in mixed sex spaces.

@BrightGreenGoose
I started this post because the recent normalisation of self ID has got people talking about toilets and how to keep AGPs away. Many women feel threatened when men come into single sex spaces. It's no time for "I'm alright Jack".

Yeh seems pretty obvious, I can't see how it could be confusing at all.