Is this the answer? "N" toilets

[Justwrong68]

I saw these toilet signs in the Coal Drops area of Kings Cross. I assume the "N" is for neutral or non binary. I wondered what people's thoughts were, a solution? Or no difference?

Of course it is, but TW don't want that because they need women's toilets for validation

It's a perfectly good solution- I wouldn't think its a good use of public money but its great for private firms to provide these facilities.

Fabulous solution.

Sorry, OP. I've transposed the N and M on the signage in my head. I will withdraw my post above.
The toilets are a good idea but men who claim to be women won't stay out of the toilets labelled "women's" anyway. The N toilets might work as "overflow" (unfortunate choice of word) depending on the layout.

Those infographics are very poor. I interpreted the logos on the physical sign as "[dot] N II" etc and wondered how people would know they referred to toilets. Then I realised they are supposed to be human figures: dot is the head, letter the torso, II the legs. Updated versions of the stick figures with trousers to indicate men, and skirts for women.

But it doesn't work because (i) it's not in common usage and (ii) it relies on people being literate in English to recognise and understand what the letters represent.

Trousers and skirts might be outdated but culturally the understanding is internationally widespread. Using an initial letter is not.

N meets the need, and there are women who will happily use mixed sex spaces as they share on many threads.

This is only step one of the process however. The next step will be requiring that male people of all identities respect and do not enter female only provisions because those facilities are needed for those women to have access and equality.

When you have well known male people with TQ+ identities such as India Willoughby gleefully posting that when they found the main toilets for women had been made gender neutral, and that the women only toilet was signposted as some way off, and Willoughby made a point of going all the way to the women only toilet - it becomes very apparent that the main point is not access or inclusion or 'just wanting to pee'. It is a need to dominate, control, and make it very clear to women that there is nowhere that they can have where that male person cannot literally pee on. That there is nowhere those women can take their knickers down without that male person being there, however they feel and whether or not this pushes them out of any space at all. And the glee in controlling, harassing, distressing and excluding women is an active part of the experience.

So yes. Let's have N. Bring the third spaces on. And then we can get to addressing the really bloody awful behaviour and attitudes towards women that some male people of all identities love to indulge in, and how we effectively as a society deal with this. This would make it very clear, it's not a TQ thing, it's a fecking awful male behaviour thing.

As long as they all have door gaps for safety. And they are included in the mens quota as it is unlikely women will use them. I have direct experience of this - ‘non binary’ young women at a venue I know well campaigned for a non gender toilet changed but ended up using the women’s again, as the mixed sex toilets were used by men for long sit downs. They also smelt of wee.

(i) it's not in common usage and (ii) it relies on people being literate in English to recognise and understand what the letters represent.

Particularly unhepful in an area like that with a lot of tourists.

there are women who will happily use mixed sex spaces as they share on many threads.

They say that. But I'm just back from a women's conference - several hundred women, perhaps a dozen men (mostly venue staff so probably had their own facilities). The organisation is very TWAW, and plenty of women made speeches to that effect. The venue had 'everyone' loos right next to the men's and women's ones. I didn't see a single woman use the 'everyone'.

No, because only rational people who want to find a kind way forward would support them. Ideologues and MRAs would continue demanding access to women's toilets.

As a PP suggested, they might be useful as 'overflow' facilities. But, equally, the signage is obscure even to English speakers, so they're pointless really.

Third spaces are provided for people who physically cannot access small toilet cubicles, not people who are opposed to respecting the dignity and security of others.

In the current climate, communal unisex toilets are a very bad idea. After few years they so be used as examples of why all communal toilets should be unisex. Unless there is a massive upsurge in assaults in those toilets - which also depends on those assaults being reported, accurately documented, and those statistics made public. Just to be clear: even one assault is one assault too many.

So, no, I do not think fourth spaces are the way to go.

I went to a university yesterday for an open day.
I was massively impressed by their unisex toilets, with individual, full length door locking cubicles containing toilet, sink, hand dryer and mirror.
Absolutely brilliant more toilets for everyone to use, nobody feels vulnerable as they feel like proper private rooms.
I think this is the solution.
That said, DH said he felt uncomfortable because he felt like he was queuing in the ladies.

Just let’s hope everyone is well and no one has disabilities like epilepsy behind those full length doors. Remember if you are feeling ill to not lock the door and tell someone you are in there. ‘Proper private rooms’ are so much more convenient for all sorts of activities to take place.

There was a woman on here saying that the mixed sex toilets at her daughter’s school had led to more sexual assaults. I searched but I can’t find it now.

Safeguarding depends on visibility.

University is a particular vulnerable time for anyone, let alone people with health conditions. You don’t know anyone, trying to make friends maybe by getting your guard down and are at an age where you take risks like drugs/ too much alcohol/ risky sex. More enclosed mixed sex toilet cubicles that are private is not the answer.

Great idea but some people will not feel 'validated' by it.

Well, I though it was an excellent solution, like using the bathroom in a house, which last time I checked, everyone uses even at a party when you don't know everyone.

I'm not afraid of men though, which I know you all think makes me a naive fool and maybe I am, or a lucky fool?
But I'm 40 years old and have never been made to feel uncomfortable by a man, let alone be assaulted by one.

I actually feel more and nervous around women so a unisex toilet felt better for me. Each to their own.

I don’t profess to understand the issue with male and female toilets when they are single loos, went to a toilet area recently where all the toilets were single, lockable, loos, no urinals,and all in the same space, so does it matter in those circumstances what they are labelled, do totally agree that where there are urinals etc that they should be separate.

Good idea, but terrible signage. The symbology is obscure, which is exactly what you don't need when you're in an unfamiliar area and desperate for the toilet. It's supposed to be a straight-forward sign, not a taster for a Crystal Maze challenge!

Especially unsuitable in an area where many visitors' first language isn't English. I've just worked out what the French and Spanish equivalents would be, and I don't see myself working out in a hurry which side to go to in a French or Spanish train station.

That's fair enough but you must have heard of the concept of 'rape'? Or have heard that males kill 2-4 women a week? I think it often gets into the newspapers, these murders and rapes. Sometimes they even have this sort of story on the news.

Obviously.
But the vast vast majority of people go through life never being raped or murdered.
And most people that are, are attacked by someone they know. A dodgy taxi driver maybe, but it's vanishingly rare to be attacked in a toilet. Followed somewhere yes, but actually in the toilets with loads of people I don't think so.

The vast majority of school kids are not abused by their teachers but we still have DBS and safeguarding.

Well we did until the trans loopholes were established.

And how do you know women are not raped in toilets? Only 1% of reported rapes are even investigated. We have no idea where women are raped.

But I'm years old and have never been made to feel uncomfortable by a man, let alone be assaulted by one.

You're very lucky, then. A survey in 2021 found that 71% of women of all ages said they had experienced sexual harassment in a public. For young women 18 - 25 years old the figure is even higher.

You said you thought it was an excellent solution and nobody feels vulnerable. Unfortunately these toilets are not the safest option though.

You are not vulnerable at this moment in time. I expect you are an able bodied healthy individual who is not under the influence of alcohol/medication/ or otherwise. You have not been pushed into a private area and assaulted. At least one girl each school day is though, raped inside school premises. These may not all be in toilets but they are in private spaces. Making more private spaces is not going to help.

You are very lucky. No one had any idea my teenager was about to have her first seizure. She was well and happy. Then she wasn’t and she’s had to have part of her brain removed from the damage. This is why I am having to be increasingly blunt. If any student had a seizure/brain haemorrhage/heart attack/stroke/hypo/choking on vomit in one of these toilets they would have less of a chance of surviving than if they were in a toilet with gaps at the bottom of the doors. This is vulnerability. This is why we need single-sex toilets with their door gaps because the toilet is where everyone goes when they feel ill.

So anything up to being raped is OK? And even rape isn't particularly concerning because it doesn't happen very often.

Lovely attitude.

the vast vast majority of people go through life never being raped

hmm. Majority yes, vast? not sure that that is true of women.

97% of women have experienced sexual harassment in public places. Allegedly - I think that figure sounds low. That can feel very threatening.

Yes looks good