Does anyone actually fully support trans people in women's changing rooms and loos?

[bottomsup12]

Just curious really? I see a lot of aggressive stances (Owen Jones eg) pro this on twitter etc. I don't get it.
The only reason I can think of is that it's never actually happened to them and they imagine it will be fine but when it actually happens a few times they might start seeing sense?

For the men who are aggressively pro it I wonder how they would feel is women just started flooding into their changing rooms and bathrooms ?

You were right. But, I have only once got an answer, so I am hopeful that this is the thread Catiette!

I said nothing about bots.

Bots don’t behave like this.

But here's the thing. You guys think things are going your way, but they aren't. Kier Starmer, and the Labour Party under him, may be shit, but when you don't have your ideological bedfellows in power any more, doing your bidding, you are going to stop having your little victories. Lots of things will happen that will appall you, and there will be nothing you can do about it except stamp your feet. But no one will be there to passify you with a legislative lolly pop anyone.

Lol @PP82 - you're letting your true colours show now aren't you?

Btw women on TERF Island are made of sterner stuff and it will take more than a lollipop to passify us but thanks for your concern!

All this ‘you guys’ stuff is tedious frankly.

Especially when it’s presented as ‘we are the future’ and ‘you’ dinosaurs are going extinct and don’t even realise it.

🥱🥱

And all of you posting proudly how you've succeeded in raising kids who's lives are dominated by fear and shame about their bodies, and/or are nice little bigots in your image, shame on you.

I remember when I was a teenager in the 90s. People said gay kids went on about about their sexuality too much/made it their whole personality/were boring. That didn't age well.

I'm tickled by the idea that Gen Z are more relaxed about sharing rooms with strangers. As a population, this cohort struggles hugely with social anxiety! Study after study finds they struggle more with mental health than millennials did at the same age. When push comes to shove, and gen Z become old enough as a population to need in-patient stays in hospital, they'll self-exclude themselves from care if the wards are a free-for-all. Just like women do now.

Dropping NHS standards back to unisex wards is never going to be progressive. When did the NHS bring them in? Were the wards always unisex from the dawn of the NHS, or was it a fashionable idea imposed upon patients? Either way it must have been some point long before 1997. Anything else we want to revert to from then?

Just going to repeat this request:

Can posters please provide the evidence that the risk of male people with a trans identity committing a sex offence is lower than the rest of the male UK population for safeguarding.

Because if you cannot provide this evidence, all you have is your own 'feelings' on this.

What is the specific differences between male people who have transitioned and all other male people that means that they can come into a female single sex space?

Please. Put the evidence up that convinced you that women and girls should accept some male people into their single sex spaces.

Yoj might find it tedious but you can't think you are actually going to prevail, can you? It's futile.

I don't know whether we'll succeed in regaining our rights, but that doesn't mean it's not worth trying.

P.S. you're older than me. I was a trans activist from.18 onwards. I've now grown out of it.

What true colours? Someone who hates all forms of fascism including this one?

oh eff off - I’m traditionally a labour supporter so shove your ‘ideological bedfellows’ nonsense.

You live in Spain and have no idea what people on the street, ie voters, in the UK feel about this - and all the YouGov polls clearly show that support for trans issues has been waning over the last five years, specifically in response to single sex space issues/ TW sex offenders in women's prisons/ protecting women's sports as it has led many to question their understanding of what being ‘trans’ actually means.

I’m currently a university lecturer/PhD researcher and I can assure you that support for the issue is less and less present in universities other than for a few radicalised lecturers and student union activists.

Am silencing this thread now.

.@PP82 isn’t it transwomen who want to be ‘segregated’ from other men? They need to start living this inclusion you speak of and head back into men’s toilets and changing rooms.

Most voters want to reduce immigration. Should they also be listened to, and their views respected?

Wanting to secure women's rights and caring about the safeguarding of vulnerable people including children isn't fascism. And no amount of saying it is will change that fact. (But the TRas aren't that hot on fact, are they?)

All this language of fighting and prevailing and such is just nonsense. There is no ‘culture war’. It’s not war. And the idea of culture war is used to prevent discussion.

I can’t help but wonder, if the writing is so obviously on the wall and anyone who questions gender ideology is on the brink of catastrophic ‘defeat’ why you’re even bothering to come to MN to keep telling us we are on the wrong side of history.

do you know what democracy is?

Just leaving this question here because it seems no one who dismisses the need for single sex spaces wishes to answer. And it is specifically related to the OP title. It is a follow on from:

Can posters please provide the evidence that the risk of male people with a trans identity committing a sex offence is lower than the rest of the male UK population for safeguarding.

If you, personally, acknowledge that these male people have no reduced risk compared to other male people in later posts.

Can you give us a number, not n+1 meaning when enough are harmed that society should act, for how many women and girls harmed are acceptable collateral in the prioritising of male people's demands over female people’s needs?

I’ll be fair and start from now because there is already many examples I can quote from the UK of women and girls being harmed. There are ALREADY girls and women who have been harmed either physically or through any number of other harms. This includes women self excluding from using toilets and change rooms they are not confident are single sex spaces.

So, please quantify your thoughts here. We are used to seeing the dismissive n+1 type answer.

Will 1 more woman or girl being attacked, intimidated, being exposed to naked males, feeling traumatised, being abused or needing to exclude due to religious or past trauma mean you will finally consider those female people’s needs? 2? 5? 10? 100?

Do the women need to publicise their needs? Give traumatic accounts for you to consider their needs?

How do you measure the number of women and girls restricting their movements in public (including employment) because for religious reasons they cannot use the toilet or changing room? Do their needs even feature in your assessment when you prioritise male people’s demands?

@PP82 - tall about the pot calling the kettle black! So you hate fascism ... you're absolutely hilarious, if somewhat lacking in self awareness.

I am the mother of two gen z teenagers who are not remotely ashamed of their bodies, neither are they bigotted. But they do understand biological reality.

Are you serious? My kid has no shame and fear about her body. She does understand privacy, dignity and that she has a right to her boundaries, whatever people like you say. Calling her an all her friends bigots for knowing how to say no? Nice bit of rape culture you got going on there.

Ah, the 'it's just like homophobia' gotcha. That isn't. Have you met the identity kids? It really is an all consuming obsession for most of them. Kids figuring out their sexuality decades ago did NOT spend every waking hour obsessing in the same way.

You seem to be completely living in your own world where you think your wonderous ideals are the epitome of 'left wing'. Most countries, even those with left wing governments, control immigration. You seem to be living in an evidence free zone. There are countries out there with left wing governments that still control immigration to sustainable levels.

This constant push that left wing = unlimited immigration is a myth.

I live under one such government. But any efforts to control freedom of movement, by any government of any stripe, must be resisted.

There is no 'unsustainable ' level of immigration. Immigration fuels economic growth.

The will of the majority cannot impinge on other's basic human rights. And freedom of movement is a basic human right.

Quite. OP professes not to believe in any form of private healthcare. Oh apart from when she needs to buy another woman's eggs.

Normally I would think that's her prerogative, her choice. But she's not willing to let other women have any choices about their bodies, their lives.

As I said upthread, a mess mass of contradictions.