Does anyone actually fully support trans people in women's changing rooms and loos?

[bottomsup12]

Just curious really? I see a lot of aggressive stances (Owen Jones eg) pro this on twitter etc. I don't get it.
The only reason I can think of is that it's never actually happened to them and they imagine it will be fine but when it actually happens a few times they might start seeing sense?

For the men who are aggressively pro it I wonder how they would feel is women just started flooding into their changing rooms and bathrooms ?

We all know benefit fraud has very little impact on public funds. Tax evasion is the issue.

I have no interest in asking politely for tiny concessions to redress the balance somewhat. If you wanna fight back, actually fight.

What are you doing, besides sneering at other women for wanting basic privacy and dignity?

But I've developed more nuanced ways of discussing things. But coming on this thread and encountering views I find so horrifying sends me straight back to my youthful militancy.

I'm sure you were as effective in convincing people then as you are now.

What is it that you find so "horrific"? It all sounds like posturing.

Anyway, I'm going to bed, it's 3.07 and an hour later over there, so goodnight.

But the removal of single-sex spaces can and does cause harm to others.

It reduces access to healthcare and other services people may need. It reduces people's opportunities for work and socialisation, impacting on their health, financial security and quality of life. It reduces privacy and dignity.

Sexual harassment and assault is prevalent in many societies. It is usually perpetrated by men, against women. A woman who has experienced this may need access to single-sex spaces for mental and physical healthcare. Denying her this risks preventing or limiting her recovery and increasing the risks of further distress and re-traumatisation.

"Gender" segregation would be unworkable and pointless. Why segregate on the basis of an unverifiable belief about oneself which only a tiny minority of people have?

What the vast majority of humanity supports is sex segregation where it is appropriate for safety (in the case of women and girls), privacy and dignity. Those situations include public changing rooms and loos. Sex segregation of these spaces does not oppress anyone, because nobody is locked out of access to the resource - a place to change clothes/shower and deal with natural bodily functions, respectively and which is adapted to their needs where necessary, eg sanitary bins and provision in women's toilets, urinals in men's toilets.
The reason sex segregation does not work for males claiming to be women is because the resource they insist they need is the physical presence of women. Males with paraphilias like autogynaephilia, paedophilia, menophilia, exhibitionism or voyeurism also require the presence of women and girls to satisfy their sexual impulses. These are not legitimate wants or needs for society to supply and to do so is oppressive of women.

For work risk assessments you decide if a certain risk is worth taking because of what you gain by it and because there is no safer alternative. Not all gains justify taking certain level of risk. I make those judgement calls in my lab all the times and there are some risks that I don't ask my more junior staff to take but do myself (experiments involving heavy isotopes, for example, or working with some newly emerging pathogen we don't know well yet).
In this particular risk assessment, letting men have unfettered access to women's spaces, what do we women gain by accepting the greater risk for our personal safety? What is in it for us?

This is a great post! Thank you.

Straw poll amongst 5 random gen Z last night (inc one desister and one ‘trans’) - no, they definitely don’t feel strange men should be allowed to share their spaces if they were in a maternity ward - although their body issues are such that few of them consider the chances of getting pregnant high because nakedness in front of even close friends and partners is distressing. They felt it so much so that the four natal females in that group wanted to know about my home birth experience…

Sorry to break it to you op. My 15 year old spoke up in class and said people should be free to do what they want but single sex spaces need to remain. Teacher agreed as did every other girl in the class. All of them.

Interesting that you’re quite happy to participate in capitalism to buy another woman’s eggs and to use private health care to get pregnant, though?

Well if she’d been my midwife we would have had an interesting conversation if she’d tried to ‘assign’ my DC a sex.

That is good to read.

Neither of my DSs think that a male person should be allowed to enter women’s facilities.

My local hospital changed to all partners overnight after the birth of DC2. When I asked why, they tinkled that a lot of mums wanted the help. I explained I wasn't happy with that, and was really very surprised our massive Muslim population would be happy with being unable to remove hijab to sleep, the head midwife smirked. I asked about safeguarding and she said "oh, you wouldn't believe the awful things we have seen in here since we allowed it, but what can you do?"

Then lockdown hit and the silver lining was sleeping on a ward without other peoples partners after a gruelling and terrifying birth where I'd already lost my right to consent and been treated like meat.

Gen Z? They will grow old and have babies too. They will start to experience what mothers, older women, men who love their daughters and wives experience. They are already eyerolling at the attention seeking nonsense. It won't be long.

Most of them are already there Rinkly. Teen girls don’t want to get changed with teen boys watching.

My teen and all her friends just find it all a bit cringe. And boring. The kids experimenting with identities have literally nothing else to talk about so basically get avoided now. It consumes every single thought and most of the kids are too bright, too curious to listen to it for long.

I know that generally debate is good but I wonder whether the only way to deal with the likes of PP82 is to not give her the oxygen of attention?
On the point about capitalism - the current version of which I have huge (what used to be called 'left wing'!) issues with, the idea that TRAs are somehow sticking it to the man is ludicrous.
The whole thing is being steamrolled ultimately by corporations who think they've seen a way of marketing their products in a world taken in by show over substance; and who then steamroll the govts they lobby and support. You only need Google or Facebook or YouTube or Amazon to start supporting (or pretending to support) this nonsense, and the US govt falls over itself to do the same, followed like dominoes by the rest of the world it 'leads'.
And in addition it's a nice little earner in ways that seem tiny individually, but in an increasingly desperate world where everyone's scrabbling to make money, is still important: pharma, the US doctors, the panoply of Chinese-made plastic rainbow shit desecrating the planet, the 'influencers' and tiktokers having to monetise their brands.

This ^.

4-5 years ago 50% of my now 19yo’s peers/year group were pan/trans/demi/queer with a few plain vanilla gays/lesbians tossed in. Most are now at uni and bored stupid of it.

My nearly 16yo says 90% of his year group avoid the other 10% if they can (long term friendships dating back to junior school garners a little more tolerance for a select few).

When the rainbow crew come to give PSHE/RSE workshops, they are vocally pushed back against to the point that the school has recently chosen to revert to staff led sessions now and not use 3rd party providers. Change of senior management over the last 3 years may have led to this, plus an active Parent Voice/PTA.

Some posters here clearly live in a reddit/SM echo chamber that does not reflect the wishes of a) most women (I’ve managed hundreds in Scouts/Guides as a DC, also ran an after school care business with lots of mothers as clients) not ONE supported mixed sex facilities/changing on trips or outings or in the care of their children; or b) gen Zs - of the arty, right-on genZ YPs that I deal with not even 10% would describe themselves as trans/queer now and - as already posted - even those that do (interestingly all natal females) do NOT want mixed sex spaces if they have a choice.

They all order on line/buy to try at home and return. It’s just males/trans women who want into these spaces.

Couldn't agree more @soupycustard - it's very naive to think that the TRA movement is somehow anti establishment.

I thought DD was going to fall down this path but I think the idea of sharing toileting facilities with men, or vice versa is what would always kill it for her.
Although all the girls who are now boys I know of use the disabled or the women’s anyway.

I am utterly sick of women going ‘well I’m fine with it’ literally couldn’t give a shit, I do. Your feeling doesn’t trump mine. I don’t want them there so that’s it.

@soupycustard I always find it depressing to see a plopper thread started and then a single TRA poster (with numbers in the name so often) come in and have the whole thread centre around them. Everyone keeps asking them questions and they use this to distract, detail and generally control the conversation.

I know ‘operation let them speak’. But I’m not sure this is letting them speak. It feels more like dancing to their tune.

But you don't get to stamp your feet, demand and be pandered to. You don't get to decide.

Lol. You think I'm a bot?

@pp82 neither do you.