Does anyone actually fully support trans people in women's changing rooms and loos?

[bottomsup12]

Just curious really? I see a lot of aggressive stances (Owen Jones eg) pro this on twitter etc. I don't get it.
The only reason I can think of is that it's never actually happened to them and they imagine it will be fine but when it actually happens a few times they might start seeing sense?

For the men who are aggressively pro it I wonder how they would feel is women just started flooding into their changing rooms and bathrooms ?

I know Spain very well. I have relatives there. I speak the language. I'm dual nationality (not Spanish though) and have an EU passport.

Brexity terf island is different, as you acknowledge.

I don't need to make any demands, because it's standard where I live that men aren't allowed overnight.

The issue for you is that you don't get to stamp your feet and demand that we all put up with your husband overnight. And don't you hate it.

Things change. What seemed progressive in 1997 seems regressive now.

I can't wait for Gen Z to take over the reigns of power. The thought of it is the only thing that gives me hope in these dark times of right wing populism, of which you are of course a part, whatever claims you may make to the contrary.

I can't wait for Gen Z to take over the reigns of power. The thought of it is the only thing that gives me hope in these dark times of right wing populism, of which you are of course a part, whatever claims you may make to the contrary.

You are funny

Again, I live in Spain. I can have my husband with me overnight. I wouldn't give birth in an English hospital if you paid me. They are all filthy delapidated dumps at this point, due to 14 years of government by the party you are all proudly declaring you are going to vote for this year

Men can bond with their babies for many hours of the day, and then can go home and leave the women recovering on the postnatal hospital ward to recover. They don't need to be there 24hrs a day and sleeping on a chair to do that. And, partners bonding should not take priority over post natal women and their needs. Obviously.

They aren't real needs. They're just ones you made up.

It's great that you've moved to a country more to your liking, I'm very happy for you @PP82. One wonders why you're ranting about the hospital ward policies of a country you no longer live in though.

They aren't real needs. They're just ones you made up.

They are as much needs as any other needs based on feelings. Such as those of MTF trans people to be validated in their chosen "identity".

Because gender segregation is wrong wherever it occurs. Should no one care what happens in other countries?

Why is it wrong?

Why are you so exercised about it? Use the unisex spaces.

One is inclusion and the other is exclusion.

So?

Single sex spaces are not wrong. Why on earth do you think that?

"Inclusion" isn't universally a good thing, is it? Or do you think people should be able to get disability benefits when there is absolutely nothing wrong with them but they "identify" as disabled?

Because I believe in freedom. As long as you are not physically harming another person, no one's movements should be controlled. That's true whether you are talking international borders or changing room doors.

That sounds quite a simplistic way of looking at the world. And unworkable.

Yes, actually I do. I support anyone getting anything they can out of the state. If forced to live under capitalism, fight back however you can.

It's served me well.

You made a fairly laughable claim to be a feminist earlier, how does this "I believe in complete freedom for everyone" work within a patriarchal society? Men dominate, dismiss, assault and sexually harass women. The tiny concessions women have are intended to redress the balance somewhat.

Yes, actually I do. I support anyone getting anything they can out of the state. If forced to live under capitalism, fight back however you can.

Do you think the state has unlimited funds?

It's all very teenage, for a middle aged woman.

I have no interest in asking politely for tiny concessions to redress the balance somewhat. If you wanna fight back, actually fight.

But changing rooms are an irrelevant distraction.

Twenty years ago I said stuff like this all the time. Obviously I generally don't any more, even though my fundamental values haven't changed. But I've developed more nuanced ways of discussing things. But coming on this thread and encountering views I find so horrifying sends me straight back to my youthful militancy.