Does anyone actually fully support trans people in women's changing rooms and loos?

[bottomsup12]

Just curious really? I see a lot of aggressive stances (Owen Jones eg) pro this on twitter etc. I don't get it.
The only reason I can think of is that it's never actually happened to them and they imagine it will be fine but when it actually happens a few times they might start seeing sense?

For the men who are aggressively pro it I wonder how they would feel is women just started flooding into their changing rooms and bathrooms ?

Partners do not have a right to be on a hospital ward. They are not the patient. They are not recovering from birth. Postnatal wards should have sufficient staffing that women are supported when visiting hours end and partners go home.

It is not Victorian nor prudish to want some time away from stranger men when in the uniquely vulnerable state of being immediately post natal. I know, I have been on a postnatal ward twice as a mother and was exceedingly glad to have that period of time at night when it was just the other women. I would not have been able to sleep if men had been present.

I had a doula for my first birth. She was great, nothing crackpot about her. Vital for me at points in various ways.

^Doulas are crackpots

Birthing mothers are prudes^

The misogyny is strong in this one.

If you are that scared of men that you cannot sleep in their presence on a postnatal ward with the men's partners and midwives and nursing staff present, you need therapy. That isn't normal, healthy or rational.

That's what makes me so angry on these threads. You all affect this exaggerated fragility, and promote it as a normal healthy state. You want women to be afraid, encourage that fear, and try to ensure that the next generation of young women are permanently afraid of their fellow humans beings. All to serve your twisted agenda. It's cynical, dangerous and horrifying.

Feminism was supposed to be about smashing boundaries, but you all fetishise them and constantly try to create more.

I'm not scared of men, no therapy needed thank you. I said that I would not be able to sleep around male strangers. That's not fear, it's a simple reaction to the circumstances where I am incapacitated and in pain, unable to move easily and feeling exceptionally emotionally vulnerable. I find it astonishing that as a midwife (?) or someone who has worked with women post natally that you cannot empathise with that feeling. You seem to have no empathy at all for women, and no understanding of their feelings. That's what's horrifying here.

What is this mockery of women for not wanting to sleep in wards with male visitors present?

One of Labour's manifesto commitments in 1997 was single-sex wards across the NHS, in response to public campaigning. It was a widely popular promise, and the Conservative party in opposition pursued the Labour party over any delays in implementation.

We used to have mixed-sex wards, and everyone hated them! Why is this social history being denied?

You lot go on about empathy, but all you mean by empathy is a willingness to pander to your own particular strange attitudes. No empathy for anyone who falls outside your narrow definitions of what is right and proper.

Nope. No idea what you're on about there. It's a well established norm as @NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision describes and it is those who have recently started to push for all spaces to be mixed sex that need a lesson in empathy and consideration for those who don't want to comply with the few.

Extract from BBC article, dated May 2007

The NHS is failing to ensure all non-emergency hospital patients are kept in single-sex accommodation, the government has admitted.

Campaigners say mixed-sex accommodation denies patients the chance of treatment with "privacy, respect and dignity".

Ministers were insisting as recently as November that 99% of patients were being seen in single-sex wards.

But the government has now announced that 28 NHS trusts - 15% of the total - need more help achieving this.

The promise to end mixed-sex accommodation was first made in the 1997 general election manifesto after Tony Blair attacked the Conservatives for failing to have "the wit" to end the practice.

A target was introduced in 2000 that within two years 95% of patients would be in single-sex accommodation.

The government's definition includes separate wards or bays divided by fixed partitions, which campaigners say is not enough. Patients also needed access to single-sex toilet facilities.

Departments such as intensive care and A&E do not have to fully comply for practical reasons, although they are expected to make an effort.

Last year, ministers said NHS managers had reported just 1% of patients were seen in mixed wards.

But the government launched an inquiry after reports from patients and a survey by the Healthcare Commission cast doubt on the claim.

Chief nursing officer Christine Beasley, who conducted the inquiry, has now concluded the NHS had to do more to keep male and female patients separate.

Her report called on all hospitals to review their practices and said 28 trusts were receiving support to change their practices because they were falling a long-way short.

It did not identify how many patients were staying in mixed accommodation, although campaigners said it ran into many thousands.

The report also failed to explain why NHS managers had given ministers what turned out to be incorrect information.

Professor Beasley said: "I am asking the NHS to do more to ensure that when there is no choice but to mix patients, that more safeguards are taken to ensure that privacy is maintained."

Health Secretary Patricia Hewitt said: "The NHS overall has an excellent record of treating people with dignity and respect.

"However, this report shows there is clearly still more work for the NHS to do to meet our commitment to eliminate mixed-sex accommodation wherever possible."

Katherine Murphy, of the Patients Association, said: "Patients have a right to be treated in a safe environment with privacy, respect and dignity.

"Patients continue to complain and for years politicians have promised to rectify this problem.

"After more than 10 years of promises broken by a succession of ministers, it is time for action."

The Patient Forums organisation said a survey it carried out of 2,500 patients in March this year found 25% had shared a ward or bay with members of the opposite sex.

Chair Jacquie Pearce-Gervis said: "We would like to see an eradication of mixed sex wards in order for all patients to spend their time in hospital recovering and not worrying that their dignity or privacy could be compromised."

Shadow health secretary Andrew Lansley accused the government of trying to bury bad news by publishing the report on the day Tony Blair was expected to announce his resignation.

"Labour will never learn that the public are fed up with their style of government instead of dealing with the problems being faced by patients."

BBC

I'm in the US and in my state we have single hospital rooms so we don't share with others. In maternity wards dads can sleep in rooms if mom lets him, but the idea of another man, a stranger, sleeping next to me after having a baby is insane to me. Granted, we pay outrageous health care costs... but still, the idea of mothers sharing a room with a strange man in it isn't on and that's one cost I don't mind paying (and politically I'm of the mind we need government-run universal healthcare).

And @PP82 you can be as condescending and unsympathetic as you want as it obviously makes you feel über cool, but it's no way to win friends or influence others.

Are you claiming that it would cause you emotional pain if we were on the same post-natal ward and my husband wasn't there overnight?

Because if not, what do I need to have empathy for? Sure, I'll miss him, but I wouldn't expect anyone else to miss him.

Postnatal wards are noisy enough, so I'm willing to not have him there to be considerate to others. In return, I won't have to put up with other women's taste in men overnight!

Women who want their male partner there. Men who don't want to miss their newborn's precious first hours. Trans women who want to be accepted for their true gender identity, and to use the facilities that align with that. All because of an insincere, affected set of phobias designed to weaponise fear for political gain.

You lot go on about empathy, but all you mean by empathy is a willingness to pander to your own particular strange attitudes. No empathy for anyone who falls outside your narrow definitions of what is right and proper.

Like anyone here is going to take lectures from people like you.

So you're not going to miss my husband then. Most of us want our partner there, but the cost of that is putting up with all the men. You're not going to be suffering more than anyone else.

No men are going to be missing their baby's first few hours, because no-one goes straight to post-natal. You stay in the delivery room for hours, before you're moved to the general maternity ward, so you can cut that tripe right out.

Physical hospital facilities are for physical bodies, not their gender identities. The male transitioners can simply stop being irrational.

Different views are always to be expected but consent doesn't work unless all parties agree. Women don't consent to all spaces being mixed sex. Just because some women do, doesn't mean all do. And frankly, the majority of women don't.

No I do not wish to share toilets or changing rooms with trans women, neither does my daughter. They can use the male facillities or campaign for trans spaces.

The weird echo chamber that was the whole UK from 1997 onwards?

When you argue for unisex wards, you're literally the regressive one here, you understand that, yes? Any other traditional customs you want to bring back from before 1997? Fox hunting maybe?

You are all so utterly fanatical that I wouldn't expect you to listen to a single word I say. I just want you to realise that there are other views out there, outside your weird echo chamber. Just to be aware that they exist, that's all.

Yes, there are several personality disorders which mean that people are incapable of feeling empathy for others, particularly those who remind them of their own insecurities, or of seeing the world in a healthy, non disordered way. Which distort perception so that people with perfectly average, commonplace views can be seen as somehow hateful. I am very aware of those, because a not insignificant number of people who support the "trans" movement have this distorted, out of touch worldview.

No one's asking you to fuck them

So you do understand that consent isn't transferable!

I won't fuck your husband, and I won't share a ward with him. If you want to share with him overnight, get a private room.

You get to decide who comes into your house. You don't get to decide who can come into public spaces. It's not your space. It's a public space you can use, but you don't own it.

It's a female space. It's not for men.

The weird echo chamber that was the whole UK from 1997 onwards?

When you argue for unisex wards, you're literally the regressive one here, you understand that, yes? Any other traditional customs you want to bring back from before 1997? Fox hunting maybe?

I'm used to this revisionist nonsense from Gen Z who don't have a clue, but this poster is in her 40s. The gaslighting is ridiculous.

Well I live in Spain, which is a lot more civilised than the shithole that is Brexity Terf Island, so whether I choose to go public or private, I'll get to have my husband with me.

If you don't wish to share a ward with other babies' parents, have a homebirth or go private. You don't get to stamp your feet and demand other people be excluded from wards. Dad's bonding with their babies is just as important as mum's.