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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Does anyone actually fully support trans people in women's changing rooms and loos?

1000 replies

bottomsup12 · 16/02/2024 11:35

Just curious really? I see a lot of aggressive stances (Owen Jones eg) pro this on twitter etc. I don't get it.
The only reason I can think of is that it's never actually happened to them and they imagine it will be fine but when it actually happens a few times they might start seeing sense?

For the men who are aggressively pro it I wonder how they would feel is women just started flooding into their changing rooms and bathrooms ?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
Peskysquirrel · 18/02/2024 18:50

@catiette Instead of this, you condemn the very demographic about which you seem to care, right here, as they share the most challenging moments of their lives. They have different views to you, yes. And some of your past patients will have shared their views, & some won't... So debate! You touch on some interesting issues above - religious women (which many of these posters mentioned before you, so is clearly an area of concern & interest), male doctors (which seems to conflict with your denial of sex classes, unless this was purely semantic - you could clarify)...
👏👏👏

@PP82 I don't know how you've got the gall to type this: I've worked with a lot of very religious women who wouldn't, for example, be examined by a male doctor, and plenty of women who were experiencing DV and needed rigorous safeguarding plans in place

Your posts are a mass of contradictions

GailBlancheViola · 18/02/2024 18:56

I don't know how you've got the gall to type this: I've worked with a lot of very religious women who wouldn't, for example, be examined by a male doctor, and plenty of women who were experiencing DV and needed rigorous safeguarding plans in place

Your posts are a mass of contradictions

Aren't they just, having typed that and yet still be of the opinion there should be NO sex segregated spaces at all.

Daveandroger · 18/02/2024 19:00

So there are two types of men : men, and their statistically significant likelihood of being the perpetrator of violence towards women

and TransWomen who are natally male : and therefore somehow, are suddenly NOT in the category above, and so it follows, are not a theat to women?

Do I have that right? That the TW stop being a threat the second that they declare their womanliness? Or is it after some major surgery?

And where does that leave Eddie Izzard et al, who go into “girl mode” with the mere donning of a blouse and a bit of lippy?

Confused, Essex.

soupycustard · 18/02/2024 19:01

I hope this isn't a derail but I wonder how we got from #metoo to 'women don't need or shouldn't have sex-based spaces'.
I wasn't that sure at the time about various aspects of #metoo, but there were so many women and they/we were on the whole sympathised with/supported/lauded etc. Now, just a few years later, we mention sex-based rights and are 'bigoted nazi psychopathic evil transphobes'. Was #metoo the moment when some powerful men decided they'd had enough and decided to try another tack? (or do I need to get that tinfoil out?!)

JacksonLambsEatIvy · 18/02/2024 19:12

My immediate hypothesis on that question @soupycustard is that contemporary transactivism has been a very effective way of reasserting patriarchy and positioning women as the villains if they complain about anything.

RainWithSunnySpells · 18/02/2024 19:25

Maybe the turning point was that incident when Rose McGowan was heckled by a TW on her book tour? I think she spoke out when Caitlyn Jenner was awarded 'woman of the year' too.

She went from #metoo heroine to TERF villain.

Havingashittyarthritisday · 18/02/2024 19:35

Why am I not surprised that one poster has monopolised this thread and told us little women, many of whom have been through childbirth, that we are all wrong.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 18/02/2024 19:42

We all have to adapt to the reality around us

Oh the fucking irony!

The reality that there are two sexes and no one can change sex?

That most people, including men, want their spaces kept single sex, not segregated by 'feelings' or personality.

Baffles me how someone can have zero empathy for women in pain or at their most vulnerable but cares so deeply about pandering to men with imagined lady feelings and made up identities.

You want all sexes mixed sex. Why? Why do you think women especially shouldn't be allowed any privacy, dignity or safety from the opposite sex?

No one I know in the real world wants mixed sex spaces. No one.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 18/02/2024 19:43
  • all spaces not sexes!
NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 18/02/2024 19:52

The loudest voices in the post-MeToo conversation didn't always, in my opinion, have a secure grounding in male violence against women and girls. Their primary lens for considering sexual abuse was the power imbalances that come with socio-economic disparities and powerful positions. Harvey Weinstein and abusive producers are good examples of this, because they used their power in Hollywood to rape with impunity.

These voices are most comfortable describing rape as a crime committed by the privileged against otherwise oppressed victims. However, they tend to skate over the reality that a poor man is still physically stronger than a rich woman, and able to overpower her if she's alone. Once you've started pretending that men can't sexually abuse women from a higher socio-economic stratum, it's not much of a step to pretend that male transitioners are incapable.of raping any woman ever.

Scirocco · 18/02/2024 19:56

@PP82

So, do you consider yourself to have empathy for people with XX chromosomes who may have particular needs relating to access to single-sex spaces and services? For example, women for whom a mixed sex environment (regardless of whether or not the person with XY chromosomes considered themselves to have any particular gender identity) would mean they couldn't access healthcare, or use public changing rooms or toilets.

How would you rationalise the removal of their rights?

0psiedasiy · 18/02/2024 20:02

I have a co worker who is a trans woman (will call her a) I know her quite well, when I first met her I didn't know she was trans, she been trans since her early 30's, now late 50's, I would have no problem with her being in a woman's toilets. However I was on training with another trans woman, he was as scary as hell, very tall, muscular, obvious bulge in his mini skirt and when I went for a wee I could see his feet facing towards the toilet under the cubicle. I don't want him in my toilets, so if it was making a choice I would say that anyone who is XY, even 'a' would have to use mens or other toilets.

Ginandpangolins · 18/02/2024 20:10

RainWithSunnySpells · 18/02/2024 19:25

Maybe the turning point was that incident when Rose McGowan was heckled by a TW on her book tour? I think she spoke out when Caitlyn Jenner was awarded 'woman of the year' too.

She went from #metoo heroine to TERF villain.

The Rose McGowan incident peaked me. Before then I'd been vaguely #bekind without really understanding what was going on. Then I found out about the cotton ceiling, Jessica Yaniv, and then discovered Her Royal Highness Queen Magdalen Berns. The Reddit sub GC debates QT revealed the fragility of the TRA position, and then JKR put the cherry on the cake. Have been firmly G C ever since.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/02/2024 20:14

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 18/02/2024 19:52

The loudest voices in the post-MeToo conversation didn't always, in my opinion, have a secure grounding in male violence against women and girls. Their primary lens for considering sexual abuse was the power imbalances that come with socio-economic disparities and powerful positions. Harvey Weinstein and abusive producers are good examples of this, because they used their power in Hollywood to rape with impunity.

These voices are most comfortable describing rape as a crime committed by the privileged against otherwise oppressed victims. However, they tend to skate over the reality that a poor man is still physically stronger than a rich woman, and able to overpower her if she's alone. Once you've started pretending that men can't sexually abuse women from a higher socio-economic stratum, it's not much of a step to pretend that male transitioners are incapable.of raping any woman ever.

Edited

That's an excellent point, very thought provoking.

Maray1967 · 18/02/2024 20:28

Daveandroger · 16/02/2024 11:42

No cos it’s wrong.

An acquaintance was giving out about this, all for total acceptance of self identification. I asked her to think about how she would feel if she was in a communal changing room with her young daughters and someone with full cock and balls was naked next to them all. She said it wouldn’t bother her, other people’s genitals are of no interest to her, and it was me that had a problem.

Id like to say that we agreed to differ but in fact I said she was full of shit and she told me to fuck off and we haven’t spoken properly since.

Dear God, this is a huge part of the problem. A mother who claims to be ok with naked men in the room with her naked daughters.

I think this is what is described as being so open minded that your brains have fallen out.

Daveandroger · 18/02/2024 20:57

Maray1967 · 18/02/2024 20:28

Dear God, this is a huge part of the problem. A mother who claims to be ok with naked men in the room with her naked daughters.

I think this is what is described as being so open minded that your brains have fallen out.

Yep and added to this madness, she’s a midwife.

Snowypeaks · 18/02/2024 21:27

It's not the most important point, but I have to make it - birthing and post-partum mothers can be supported by 1)female family member 2) female friend 3) doula. Not allowing fathers on the wards outside strict visiting hours is not depriving women of support.

Snowypeaks · 18/02/2024 21:29

*female doula, obv.

theilltemperedclavecinist · 18/02/2024 21:34

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 18/02/2024 19:52

The loudest voices in the post-MeToo conversation didn't always, in my opinion, have a secure grounding in male violence against women and girls. Their primary lens for considering sexual abuse was the power imbalances that come with socio-economic disparities and powerful positions. Harvey Weinstein and abusive producers are good examples of this, because they used their power in Hollywood to rape with impunity.

These voices are most comfortable describing rape as a crime committed by the privileged against otherwise oppressed victims. However, they tend to skate over the reality that a poor man is still physically stronger than a rich woman, and able to overpower her if she's alone. Once you've started pretending that men can't sexually abuse women from a higher socio-economic stratum, it's not much of a step to pretend that male transitioners are incapable.of raping any woman ever.

Edited

That's a really good explanation. I've been puzzling and puzzling over why the Left is being so shitty to women and I think you've got it.

BusyMummy001 · 18/02/2024 21:55

@Snowypeaks Yes, especially if the DH works long hours, needs time to arrange handover before paternity leave starts (baby may have arrived early), and/or is juggling another child. I’d rather he was at home, getting it into shape, love bombing existing child and gearing up for the chaos when I got back.

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 18/02/2024 22:56

theilltemperedclavecinist

It's incredibly frustrating. Heaven knows I'm miserable now possessed of a giant chip on my shoulder about class, and the accompanying inter-generational socio-economic disparities, but the world does not solely revolve around money. It doesn't matter how much money a woman has in the bank if she's alone with a rapist.

In fact, if rape is about power, a rape-inclined predator is going to be especially motivated to assert his physical power against a female victim who might otherwise be considered to have a higher social status than him. For him, it's a way of putting her back into her place. It's so blinkered that people ignore this aspect of class resentment. It's not as simple as rich=bad or poor=good.

Men who are unhappy with their own social status or achievements lash out at the women who are doing better. Thousands of women have observed that surely? It was most recently investigated as a phenomenon on computer game servers, of all things; online gaming environments are known to be misogynistic cesspits, but a study of male gaming behaviour dug into it in more detail. The academics found the male players who reacted most abusively to the presence of female players were the lower-ranked ones!

extract

Two researchers analysed how men treated women while playing 163 games of Halo 3.
Men who performed poorly in the games responded by being hostile to female players.

The male winners were mostly pleasant to other players, while the losing men made unsavoury comments to female players.

"Low-status males that have the most to lose due to a hierarchical reconfiguration are responding to the threat female competitors pose," the researchers, from the University of New South Wales and the Miami University in Ohio, write. "High-status males with the least to fear were more positive."

In Halo 3, players are anonymous and only interact with each other by voice a few times during the game. Most Halo players are men.
When performing poorly, players increased negative statements toward women and submissive statements toward the men who were winning.

"As men often rely on aggression to maintain their dominant social status, the increase in hostility towards a woman by lower-status males may be an attempt to disregard a female's performance," the researchers write.
Male players were thrown off by hearing female voices during the game. The researchers think their results suggest that young males should be taught that losing to women is not "socially debilitating".

The results also suggest that video games may be reinforcing gender segregation and potentially promoting sexist behaviours, especially troubling since so many "gamers" are teenagers.

From the BBC

Men who performed poorly in the games were more likely to bully female players

Video game study finds losers more likely to harass women

A new study finds that men who harass women online are actual losers - at least when it comes to video games.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-33613781

BusyMummy001 · 18/02/2024 23:00

Does anyone else think that OP was not actually that ‘curious’ at all, given she’s not been back to post since 10mins after the original post?

Does that make this a phishing thread?

JacksonLambsEatIvy · 18/02/2024 23:31

@NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision There was some research published about a decade ago that showed that men (in the USA and the Netherlands, I think) actually feel better about themselves if their female partner fails (and feel worse about themselves if she succeeds). I think the experiments looked at ‘success’ as academic and social and observed the same phenomenon - even though men in the Netherlands said they felt good when their partner succeeded, their test results indicated they felt worse about themselves.

I think it was also about whether the men thought their partner had done well or poorly.

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 19/02/2024 00:35

I once saw a relationship slowly break down, ultimately ending in divorce, after a couple took up the same evening class, because she excelled at it and he didn't. She did so well she got a job teaching it herself. His resentment was palpable!

She honestly didn't care that he wasn't as good at it as her. Not at all. But he did. He just kept badmouthing her and denigrating her achievements behind her back. It was awful.

PP82 · 19/02/2024 00:54

Snowypeaks · 18/02/2024 21:27

It's not the most important point, but I have to make it - birthing and post-partum mothers can be supported by 1)female family member 2) female friend 3) doula. Not allowing fathers on the wards outside strict visiting hours is not depriving women of support.

But, in the case of heterosexual couples, the father is the other parent and has every bit as much right to be there as the mother.

A family member, friend or doula is no substitute. Doulas are just crackpots anyway. The vast majority of women want their partner there, and shouldn't be denied because of the irrational fears of a few Victorian prudes.

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