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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sunak telling Robin White that biological sex is important live on GB news

805 replies

fromorbit · 12/02/2024 21:09

'Particularly when it comes to questions around women's safety and health, biological sex is important.' Parents need to be involved in schools.

Rishi Sunak is asked 'why should LGBT people vote Conservative?'
GB News forum footage here:
https://twitter.com/GBNEWS/status/1757143443111841900

https://twitter.com/GBNEWS/status/1757143443111841900

OP posts:
Thread gallery
37
AdamRyan · 20/02/2024 12:40

eastern how on earth would you know if left wing people feel perfectly catered for by the bbc?
But, in reality, the endlessly repeated “left-wing BBC” narrative fits neither the facts nor most people’s perception

https://pressgazette.co.uk/comment-analysis/bbc-left-wing-bias/

Is the BBC left-wing? Not according to 80% of the British public

Is the BBC left-wing? Patrick Barwise and Peter York argue not, citing the results of a recent Yougov survey.

https://pressgazette.co.uk/comment-analysis/bbc-left-wing-bias

EasternStandard · 20/02/2024 12:42

If people want a left wing tv channel get your numbers together and have a market

I doubt it will happen but if that’s what posters want go for it

Makes no odds to me

AdamRyan · 20/02/2024 12:45

Oh and here.
I have no idea who "prospect" are, but that shouldn't matter apparently

A right-wing cabal, largely unaccountable, is waging war on the principles that made our public broadcaster great. It must not succeed

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/ideas/media/64534/how-the-government-captured-the-bbc

How the government captured the BBC

A right-wing cabal, largely unaccountable, is waging war on the principles that made our public broadcaster great. It must not succeed

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/ideas/media/64534/how-the-government-captured-the-bbc

AdamRyan · 20/02/2024 12:45

(I would probably file that in the "conspiracy theory" bucket, but just putting it here for balance!)

maltravers · 20/02/2024 12:46

AdamRyan · 20/02/2024 12:24

Maybe I'm misunderstanding but that seems quite a flippant use of the word "pogrom"?

See also “Trans Genocide”. I do hope you’re fighting the good fight on this over on Reddit.

AdamRyan · 20/02/2024 12:48

I'm not on reddit Confused
I find the minimisation of what happened to Jewish people distasteful. Maybe I should have just reported it instead

BBCisBatshit · 20/02/2024 13:02

The BBC is complaining about GBNews when the BBC constantly puts out one-sided reports unencumbered by truth? Like last night on the BBC News Channel. Apparently they found an "expert" to say men's milk is even better than breast milk. <boark>

Milli Hill:
https://millihill.substack.com/p/dear-bbc-youve-got-your-facts-wrong

Dear BBC, you've got your facts wrong about 'trans milk'

False claims across the media show the nonsense that ensues when you abandon plain language in favour of ideological capture.

https://millihill.substack.com/p/dear-bbc-youve-got-your-facts-wrong

maltravers · 20/02/2024 13:05

I see wiki says about the word pogroms “Sometimes the word is used to describe publicly sanctioned purgative attacks against non-Jewish groups”, I assume that is how the pp is using it, descriptively/as a metaphor.

I don’t see that it demeans Jewish suffering to suggest non Jewish groups have also suffered attacks to purge them based on their belief system or ethnicity (Bosnian Muslims for example).

Do you have the same objection to the term “trans genocide”?

UltraLiteLife · 20/02/2024 13:08

AdamRyan · 20/02/2024 12:48

I'm not on reddit Confused
I find the minimisation of what happened to Jewish people distasteful. Maybe I should have just reported it instead

As a general point, I wonder if the obvious circumstance that you find yourself publicly reporting others or contemplating it twice in the same thread might trigger some reflection about your self-reflection earlier. The one in which it seems you consider yourself to be misconstrued in your interactions both on MN and IRL in ways that are at odds with each other. (Both LarkLane and Red were thoughtful about that.)

It might be useful to reflect on whether the engagement style you choose is in line with whatever it is you wish to achieve.

RedToothBrush · 20/02/2024 13:46

maltravers · 20/02/2024 11:17

Great posts Red. I think the situation was not helped by Johnson’s government refusing to offer anyone up for interview for years. I imagine that was to avoid scrutiny and accountability rather than to wreck the BBC but it has not helped in recent history in providing the sort of left/right balance on screen on that you should see.

A point about whats happening, that is relevant to this thread and another one (just made a similar point there).

The BBC and other media outlets are supposed to be about holding power to account.

In recent years the ability to do this has MASSIVELY been curtailed by the rise of social media.

For the BBC the impact has been two fold: firstly in the instant world of social media, fact checking isn't valued, speed is. The BBC cant do its traditional fact checking, without being behind the curve. Secondly there's been massive issues for the BBC in terms of remaining solvent. The only way its been able to do this is to make MASSIVE cuts to its number of journalists.

It means that it can't be so shit on on the case of any politician. This in turn means those best at PR can be most slippery. If you can do a polished interview you can spout bollocks and get it away with it in a way you couldn't previously.

But the bigger impact that fuelled public dissatifaction probably has been the loss of local newspapers. There is now virtually no accountability at that level of governance, and this means local councillors can get away with things that they probably never could in the past. And that travels upwards into wider discontent.

This has pretty much lead to this creation of Two Britains with totally different world views:
One which is essentially viewed as 'The Establishment' This is settled middle class, we are doing ok and are fairly comfortable Britain who like the status quo and probably have fairly middle management jobs or are in education to that. They are more progressive in nature and travel fairly regularly, wanting to take in other cultures.

The other is dissatisfied Britain. Who have have a fair amount of contempt for the safe middle class management and everything it represents. To them its unfair HR or overly beaurcractic ideas or pointless training days on diversity in the workplace which are viewed as more important than actually spending time doing 'the real job'. They possibly have lived in the same place their whole lives and don't have much need or use for the world beyond that. They want things to be straightforward and simple. But they see this as impossible and that their local community is being destroyed in some way or another (community decline is connected a lot with migration patterns - which can be foreign OR domestic, economic and social participation levels). Further to that its about this concept of bullshit generation whilst ignoring those day to day issues of community decline: Example police spending time on a promoting LGBT awareness rather than investigating who stole my car or insisting you spend three days doing diversity training where you are taught that you are evil and bigoted for refusing to believe in gender or spending millions on new leaflets removing the word woman in the NHS, when you can't get a basic referral for cancer at your local hospital.

The politician PR drives to deflect from why they aren't solving problems are a MASSIVE part of the distrust. They all do it regardless of whether they are in power or not.

The classic one this week is banning phones in school, even though most schools already have a ban. Which will do fuck all to resolve online harms which is a difficult subject.

But as I say its not just the Cons in power. The same thing is true when you have MPs blocking on twitter and refusing to engage on certain subjects because they just don't like the person's opinion - the refusal to explore WHY the person sees this as an issue is a really big problem.

Anything 'difficult' can just be ignored, rather than power being held to account.

How do you solve this issue? - well how do you bring people back into the mainstream, restore trust and conversations in separate echo chambers?

You start by admitting there is a problem with bias and an inbility to challenge the spin of politicians by the likes of the BBC and to get to the real heart of a issue. That involves acknowledging there are some really difficult conversations that need to be addressed involving interest groups and individuals you don't like and that cancel culture is effectively diversive and driving the issue in many ways.

On the one hard you have the narrative of a diversity drive being a positive thing that enables ethnic minorities to have opportunities they never had. On the other hand you have the idea that diversity drives are't helpful if they essentially create the concept of the 'oppresser' to be Bob from Blackpool who can't get to hospital because he can't afford a taxi and there's no bus anymore and he wasn't alive in the 1700 to early 1800s and his own relatives were in a hovel trying to not die from dysentry and starvation were almost as just at much at the mercy of the British Upper Classes as any one else in the rest of the Empire.

It has a tone deafness to a huge number of problems of our current era and it ultimately is directed at individuals who have much less agency of their own in real terms than they are given credit for. Its all about political blind spots which become bigger when you stay in your safe echo chamber and don't go out of it because its not a vote winner anyway so its not worth your time and effect.

Again this isn't to say we SHOULDN'T be encouraging better representative. The issue is the narrative accompanying it and the neglect of real time social issues in order to drive these narratives. And this DOES come the media who are cheer leading them as wholly good with no unintended consequences.

Its an era of New Puritanism. But New Puritanism doesn't save people from poverty and suffering anymore than Puritanism and God saved anyone when it first had its day (not that Puritanism was a key feature of the Civil War Era).

In terms of getting down to Reality and Real Issues - this is where there is a serious blind spot in our society. Its driving misinformation and the rise of alternative facts - particularly amongst those who are less educated and less well able to articulate an argument in a PR friendly and polished style acceptable to the tastes of the Middle Class. And the BBC is DEFINITELY guilty on this front. And politicians are DEFINITELY guilty on this front.

Whats noticable is the most right wing politicians are the ones who have picked up on the problem most, to their personal advantage rather than because they want to fix the issues it present. Again this ISNT restricted to the UK either - there are plenty of examples throughout the rest of the world.

In terms of GB News I find it hard to argue bias greater than other broadcasters at this point for those reasons. And it absoluetely pains me to say that. I also don't think Ofcom really has the grasp of this either.

Its way beyond just being an issue in broadcasting. Its a total schism in British Society as a whole.

I'll pose this point: How does Rishi Sunak reach certain voters if they are alienated from the BBC (and perhaps start to pull them more left and away from the Reform Party)? Conversely its not worth Keir Starmers time to appeal to those same voters, because thats not where any extra vote for him will come from because they are too politically removed from his position. THATS the problem here. And in saying that Sunak can not do an interview to an audience of that nature, its fundamentally undermining democracy in a way.

Its such a DIFFICULT subject because its so broad, and really the whole womans rights v trans right thing is just a teeny tiny part of the whole thing.

(goes to do something more productive with the rest of my afternoon)

Snowypeaks · 20/02/2024 13:51

BBCisBatshit · 20/02/2024 13:02

The BBC is complaining about GBNews when the BBC constantly puts out one-sided reports unencumbered by truth? Like last night on the BBC News Channel. Apparently they found an "expert" to say men's milk is even better than breast milk. <boark>

Milli Hill:
https://millihill.substack.com/p/dear-bbc-youve-got-your-facts-wrong

Sidenote, but this bit:
In the interview Luxion, who is a researcher at UCL and trainee lactation consultant, claimed that milk from a trans woman was of equivalent or better quality than milk from a biological female.

They always have to do "womaning" better, don't they? 🙄

RedToothBrush · 20/02/2024 13:53

AdamRyan · 20/02/2024 12:40

eastern how on earth would you know if left wing people feel perfectly catered for by the bbc?
But, in reality, the endlessly repeated “left-wing BBC” narrative fits neither the facts nor most people’s perception

https://pressgazette.co.uk/comment-analysis/bbc-left-wing-bias/

Its not just about left wing v right wing in modern politics.

The political earthquake of 2016 saw to that.

Its also about authoritarianism and liberalism (or new 'liberal identity' which is distinctly authoritarian in many way versus 'free speech' or holding power if you want to use the current word uses which correspond with the previous words).

Snowypeaks · 20/02/2024 13:53

That Milli Hill substack piece is superb.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 20/02/2024 14:17

Snowypeaks · 20/02/2024 13:53

That Milli Hill substack piece is superb.

Isn't it? Clear, factual, evidenced and demonstrates how yet again the BBC fail to exercise due diligence and centres an unbelievable and dangerous narrative. Although to be fair, the problem originated with the Trust pretending that research evidenced these toxic acts when they did nothing of the sort.

Lies and untruths run through all this like a stick of rock

RedToothBrush · 20/02/2024 14:22

MrsOvertonsWindow · 20/02/2024 14:17

Isn't it? Clear, factual, evidenced and demonstrates how yet again the BBC fail to exercise due diligence and centres an unbelievable and dangerous narrative. Although to be fair, the problem originated with the Trust pretending that research evidenced these toxic acts when they did nothing of the sort.

Lies and untruths run through all this like a stick of rock

Quite.

If the BBC aren't fully on top of this, at this point, they REALLY are demonstrating a massive issue in terms of fact checking and political bias.

Thats a problem every bit as much as any other issue relating to political bias.

AdamRyan · 20/02/2024 14:47

maltravers · 20/02/2024 13:05

I see wiki says about the word pogroms “Sometimes the word is used to describe publicly sanctioned purgative attacks against non-Jewish groups”, I assume that is how the pp is using it, descriptively/as a metaphor.

I don’t see that it demeans Jewish suffering to suggest non Jewish groups have also suffered attacks to purge them based on their belief system or ethnicity (Bosnian Muslims for example).

Do you have the same objection to the term “trans genocide”?

Definition of pogrom: "A pogrom is organized, official violence against a group of people for racial or religious reasons."
Three people were reported to have died in the pogrom.

"Synonyms: massacre, slaughter, holocaust, persecution "

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/pogrom#google_vignette

I think it's a term with particular sensitivities which is why I was questioning it's use above.

I have no idea what "trans genocide" means but I suspect it's totally unrelated the the actual pogroms and genocide of Jewish people.

AdamRyan · 20/02/2024 15:00

BBCisBatshit · 20/02/2024 13:02

The BBC is complaining about GBNews when the BBC constantly puts out one-sided reports unencumbered by truth? Like last night on the BBC News Channel. Apparently they found an "expert" to say men's milk is even better than breast milk. <boark>

Milli Hill:
https://millihill.substack.com/p/dear-bbc-youve-got-your-facts-wrong

Thanks for that! It has the actual letter in it. I've been trying to find it everywhere

Apollo441 · 20/02/2024 15:19

AdamRyan · 20/02/2024 12:24

Maybe I'm misunderstanding but that seems quite a flippant use of the word "pogrom"?

It's a metaphor but you use it to stoke moral outrage and thus avoid answering the accusations. Fucking typical.

Kucinghitam · 20/02/2024 15:21

This thread has been really educational, in so many ways.

AdamRyan · 20/02/2024 16:01

Apollo441 · 20/02/2024 15:19

It's a metaphor but you use it to stoke moral outrage and thus avoid answering the accusations. Fucking typical.

What accusations were you wanting me to answer? I didn't realise there was a question in your post

MrsOvertonsWindow · 20/02/2024 16:27

Kucinghitam · 20/02/2024 15:21

This thread has been really educational, in so many ways.

Indeed it has. I went back and listened again to what Sunak said - rational, respectful and centring children and women's safety and health. So it's been fascinating to see so many desperate attempts to derail, alleging all sorts of conspiracy theories.

Quite the education.

maltravers · 20/02/2024 18:11

Apollo441 · 20/02/2024 15:19

It's a metaphor but you use it to stoke moral outrage and thus avoid answering the accusations. Fucking typical.

When accusations of transphobia lose their edge because of chronic overuse, TRAs try to spice them up by adding in some accusations of racism, antisemitism, right wingery. That seems to be the plan. Anyway, top article Milli and thanks for the link @BBCisBatshit

Kalevala · 20/02/2024 18:37

AdamRyan · 20/02/2024 14:47

Definition of pogrom: "A pogrom is organized, official violence against a group of people for racial or religious reasons."
Three people were reported to have died in the pogrom.

"Synonyms: massacre, slaughter, holocaust, persecution "

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/pogrom#google_vignette

I think it's a term with particular sensitivities which is why I was questioning it's use above.

I have no idea what "trans genocide" means but I suspect it's totally unrelated the the actual pogroms and genocide of Jewish people.

I agree that it is distasteful to use that word. People can say what they mean without using 'metaphors' like that, particularly in the current situation.

BBCisBatshit · 20/02/2024 18:42

maltravers · 20/02/2024 18:11

When accusations of transphobia lose their edge because of chronic overuse, TRAs try to spice them up by adding in some accusations of racism, antisemitism, right wingery. That seems to be the plan. Anyway, top article Milli and thanks for the link @BBCisBatshit

Yes Milli dissected this disgraceful piece of reporting very well.

Please wims, complain to the BBC! they must not get away with this. All the info needed for the complaint (channel, program, etc) are in the article.

I think BBC MUST apologize. People out there believe this shit, because it comes from the BBC.

Complain! They are gaslighting us