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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sunak telling Robin White that biological sex is important live on GB news

805 replies

fromorbit · 12/02/2024 21:09

'Particularly when it comes to questions around women's safety and health, biological sex is important.' Parents need to be involved in schools.

Rishi Sunak is asked 'why should LGBT people vote Conservative?'
GB News forum footage here:
https://twitter.com/GBNEWS/status/1757143443111841900

https://twitter.com/GBNEWS/status/1757143443111841900

OP posts:
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37
NotBadConsidering · 20/02/2024 10:21

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pronounsbundlebundle · 20/02/2024 10:29

The BBC might be balanced between left and right but they're not balanced in terms of child safety and women's rights nor offender and victim. They have a lot of journalists and an editorial line on many programmes which are misogynist and anti-safeguarding.

Savile was enabled by the BBC and things really haven't changed. I complained about an article once which described 14 year old girls in India as 'sex workers'. Tumbleweed in response. Their MRA editorial line for most programmes (not all, but it's the general environment) is why I no longer pay my TV license.

And that's before you get to calling rapists 'she' and further trampling all over the victims and their families.

LarkLane · 20/02/2024 10:30

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RedToothBrush · 20/02/2024 10:44

AdamRyan · 20/02/2024 08:19

😂
Sorry, are you trying to imply GB News and the BBC are the same, just one is left wing and one is right wing?
Good grief. For starters, the BBC isn't stuffed to the gills with current and former Labour MPs presenting "current affairs" programmed. Neither is C4 news.

No but they have diversity programmes and programmes on diversity which are done because of a more left wing/liberal belief about representation and understanding representation.

And as such have an agenda along these lines. Both the BBC and C4 run campaigns for various 'weeks' or 'months'. Such as Black History month for example.

Not only this but Trevor Phillips did a documentary for the BBC exploring whether these sort of diversity drives to improve representation within staff and were effective or whether they were flawed within their own right.

His point was that whilst they were positive to a degree, they tended to be biased along socio-economic lines and what was under represented was voices from working class communities, particularly white ones. Ethnic communities were better represented but again they tended to come from wealthier backgrounds.

When the Brexit vote happened there was a fracture in British politics. It had been happening for a while but it's an important one to understand.

Labour historically had been the party of the working class blue collar worker whilst the Conservatives had been the party of the white collar traditional middle class. But what happened is there is a feeling that Labour came detached from it's grass roots and became the party of the educated and more middle class and began to ignore issues at a more localised level. Social issues centred on poverty and disenfranchisement on a more basic level have gone on. Much of the Labour voting North became disenchanted at poor local governance (and frankly outright corruption) at the same time. Economics changed and the North began to struggle. None of this is helped by the fact that the most economically deprived don't vote at all, so there's less point in chasing those votes in elections, so there's no incentive for Labour to continue to prioritise some of these issues. In the face of this, anti-european right wingers saw an opportunity. It was Farage who capitalised on it and took votes.

This destabilised British politics.

And the Tories have been trying to make a grab back for those votes ever since as they lost so many of their more educated middle class pro-Eu voters. They succeeded in 2019. But those voters are still dissatisfied because the issues they were concerned about haven't been resolved by Brexit (they won't, because they aren't actually rooted in European issues). And the more regionalised issues tied up with economics and infrastructure aren't being listened to.

Labour now has captured that educated middle class vote which includes a much poorer young generation. It's more internationally focused and travel is an important part of the culture. But it's failing to engage with the domestic grass roots socio-economic issues of this country. It'd rather talk about identity rather than proper funding for well ... Just about anything. Because there is an awareness there's no money even if they win an election. This kinda suits the Tories too.

But my point here is that the BBC and C4 markets remain much more middle class and 'trendy' and both have an issue with broadening their appeal beyond that. In fairness to C4 this is actually written into it's remit, but this effectively makes it naturally biased even if it's not entirely obvious.

The BBC has made a lot of effort to try and reach a more working class audience. Quite frankly without a huge amount of success.

If the BBC was so unbiased, why would this be an issue?

GB news is reaching an audience that arguably weren't being served previously. Is that because it's biased or because other channels were biased and weren't fully serving their audiences?

I think the BBC does a good job and generally is good at impartiality. But it still has huge issues too - a good example is the headlines it's run about the conflict between women's rights and trans rights have been undeniably biased at times. The BBC has had to run apologies over comments going unchallenged about JKRowling.

Where the BBC does badly is on this more 'invisible' biased - where it doesn't receive a pile of complaints and people just switch off. And that needs to be on your radar. And that does fall along socio-economic lines.

If you work from that perspective, it also puts a new angle on representation on GB news. It is different, and certainly less professional and it could do a lot better on fact checking. I do think it's biased, but I think it's a respond to a lot of bias on other channels which falls under this 'invisible' issue.

GB news ISN'T my bag. It ISN'T my political views. It ISN'T unbiased. It ISN'T always responsible, professional or accurate. Quite frankly I don't like it.

BUT

I do think there IS an inherent problem in British broadcasting in terms of bias (which is difficult to the newspaper market and is regulated differently) and GB News has come to exist because of this bias within the traditional broadcasters and issues arising from it.

There is a cohort of voters who do not believe they are being listened to by ANY of the traditional political parties - INCLUDING the Conservatives.

If anything Sunak has been chasing that vote, which is more to the right of the conservatives - which is where the Reform Party sit.

This is about the Reform Party vote in many respects.

The fact that there's a whole pile of comments about GB News being the mouth piece of the Conservatives is indicative of falling to understand this dynamic. It's not.

Sunak appearing on the channel isn't trying to push an agenda for the conservatives overall. It's about chasing votes on the right wing who may not vote conservative. These voters do not engage with the likes of the BBC anymore because they feel disenfranchised and alienated from it.

Meanwhile we have a liberal/left wing group which hates GB because of its very existence. They think it should be taken off air and banned.

What we have in effect is almost two Britains that have arisen where there is very little overlap or shared view of the world.

Neither group is more important than the other. Both should be served. Both are biased in their own way. But both are serving the public in a way that is arguably also unbiased. This seems like a nuts concept and paradoxical to simultaneously believe that you can have more left wing/centre broadcasters who essentially serve a left/centre and centre right audience and have a more right wing broadcaster who essentially serve a right/more right audience but both are not beholden to a singular view either and are representing a range of views within their box. If anything I'd argue that the more traditional broadcasters have been failing in their bias obligations for a long time and this situation has arisen as a natural consequence of that. Precisely because the politicians that have appeared on them for years and years have failed to be fully representative of the public and it's social issues.

I've been a huge advocate on here for reminding people to try and spot the unseen and invisible issues going on that are hidden by various agendas or poor data collection which forgets the principle of those who are not vocal in complaining. It's a really useful life lesson to look out for groups or individuals who are disenfranchised in various ways. What goes under the radar and what has been able to fester due to neglect?

AdamRyan · 20/02/2024 10:53

Thanks red, great post
The reason I describe GB News as "the mouthpiece of the Conservatives" isn't because of the content they cover. It's because of the sheer volume of current and former conservative MPs they have as both presenters and guests.

That must be a deliberate market positioning on the part of the owners. So that indicates an inherent bias. If they wanted to correct it they could also pay some left wing politicians an inordinate amount to present shows on there. But they don't.

RedToothBrush · 20/02/2024 11:01

AdamRyan · 20/02/2024 09:49

I want it to be reported factually and not used as a political pawn. So people can be clear about the issues and draw their own conclusions. Rather than this divided "right/wrong" debate.
I find it extremely weird that on here I seem to be percieved as some kind of left wing SJW who lives in a TRA echo chamber, while in real life my friends and family won't discuss trans issues with me because they think I'm a transphobe. Something is very out of whack on line with the discourse.

Factually accurate is what I want too.

My problem is two fold.

That we've had years where the accepted norm has been to accept that there was no issue for women with transwomen and there were no issues with transition generally.

It took MASSIVE effort by the team at newsnight to fight to investigate issues at the Tavistock. That was a battle with senior management which should never have taken place. It subsequently led to the Cass Review.

And this is what we are seeing repeatedly.

A failure to uncritically examine issues by the likes of the BBC who SHOULD be doing as per their remit.

Because there has been a failure due to undue internal politics and pressure from the likes of Stonewall, we've ended up in this position.

It's led to a lack of trust in the BBC for good reason.

Secondly, it IS important to understand why other people are believing falsehoods. Often it's precisely because of this failure point and then someone else comes along and provides an alternative explanation because of the failure to engage by the 'trusted sources' because it's deemed not politically correct or not a political priority. It's about festering unrecognised or deliberately ignored problems

And this is a pattern you will see across the world.

It's what Trump does well.

Ironically if you speak to people directly about the actual problem they are very reasonable people with a fair point. The issue is where their heads go in terms of who to blame and what the political solution is. If you have a political vacuum with a bunch of people who are passionate about an issue and will be swayed by just about anyone who engages with them and recognises something in their dissatisfaction.

This is the problem. Failure to acknowledge and engage.

If you start to recognise where things have gone wrong and why people have been alienated and have lost trust, you can actually do something about it. Just trying to shove it under the rug and ban it because it's got a bias and angle you don't like kinda has an opposite effect and forces people more into the arms of those misleading.

You've actually got to start to give a shit. It's the not giving a shit that is the issue.

RedToothBrush · 20/02/2024 11:02

AdamRyan · 20/02/2024 10:53

Thanks red, great post
The reason I describe GB News as "the mouthpiece of the Conservatives" isn't because of the content they cover. It's because of the sheer volume of current and former conservative MPs they have as both presenters and guests.

That must be a deliberate market positioning on the part of the owners. So that indicates an inherent bias. If they wanted to correct it they could also pay some left wing politicians an inordinate amount to present shows on there. But they don't.

That's Franky bollocks.

Offering money wouldn't attract left wing commentators.

It's attract left wing criticism.

The issue with the politicians themselves and the nature of cancel culture.

AdamRyan · 20/02/2024 11:05

RedToothBrush · 20/02/2024 11:02

That's Franky bollocks.

Offering money wouldn't attract left wing commentators.

It's attract left wing criticism.

The issue with the politicians themselves and the nature of cancel culture.

Really? You think someone like George Galloway wouldn't run a show on GB News for £1000 an hour? Or Lembit Opik?

EasternStandard · 20/02/2024 11:11

GB News obviously want to appeal to a demographic

That is possible because the BBC is increasingly failing to make people feel heard

The market will likely grow, also with it reform party

It’s similar in many countries which are seeing a similar growth in politics to the right

RedToothBrush · 20/02/2024 11:13

AdamRyan · 20/02/2024 11:05

Really? You think someone like George Galloway wouldn't run a show on GB News for £1000 an hour? Or Lembit Opik?

If you think making GB news less bias involves George Galloway as a solution then I can't help you.

On the one hand you say you want more facts, but on the other you suggest George Galloway.

Galloway was 'the left wing' alternative on Russia Today. And way about as much of an alternative as it's possible to not be.

duc748 · 20/02/2024 11:16

Exactly. GBN aren't bothered about inviting more Labour figures on board, they're not attempting to become a 'balanced', BBC-like (!) set-up. They have their world-view, and that's that. I don't like the trend, though, of everyone selecting the media that best reflect their biases.

maltravers · 20/02/2024 11:17

Great posts Red. I think the situation was not helped by Johnson’s government refusing to offer anyone up for interview for years. I imagine that was to avoid scrutiny and accountability rather than to wreck the BBC but it has not helped in recent history in providing the sort of left/right balance on screen on that you should see.

maltravers · 20/02/2024 11:20

Selecting the media you like is the road to hell as far as I’m concerned- just look at the US. Neither side understands the other because they don’t hear the other side and there is deep division. We have to fight tooth and nail to avoid this.

Apollo441 · 20/02/2024 11:34

GB News do have a presenter that believes TWAW. He hasn't been harassed out of his job. There have been robust discussions where (IMO) his views have been shown to be not underpinned by reason but they agree to disagree. I can't see the 'unbiased' BBC doing the same.

maltravers · 20/02/2024 11:42

It’s a bit concerning that neither Hannah Barnes nor Deb Cohen are still at the BBC. It may be unrelated to their work on the Tavistock issues (so out of kilter with the BBC on this issue generally) and is just about better opportunities elsewhere, I really hope so. Does anyone know anything on this?

Apollo441 · 20/02/2024 11:48

maltravers · 20/02/2024 11:42

It’s a bit concerning that neither Hannah Barnes nor Deb Cohen are still at the BBC. It may be unrelated to their work on the Tavistock issues (so out of kilter with the BBC on this issue generally) and is just about better opportunities elsewhere, I really hope so. Does anyone know anything on this?

I'm sure had they written what they have whilst at the BBC they would have been a pogrom. Jenny Murray was retired for questioning the party line.

duc748 · 20/02/2024 11:51

Are, or were people like Hannah Barnes actually employed by the BBC, or are they all free-lance, essentially self-employed?

MrsOvertonsWindow · 20/02/2024 11:59

There's an ex BBC employee, Cath Leng, trying to challenge the BBC's bias over this. She's analysed their lack of output about women's rights and how they actively avoid reporting news in favour of anything drag, surrogacy etc. This is despite appointing very special "journalists" to cover identity issues:

https://grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/the-bbcs-blind-spot

Her twitterX account is worth following:
https://twitter.com/leng_cath/status/1756599200941215920

https://twitter.com/leng_cath/status/1756599200941215920

UltraLiteLife · 20/02/2024 12:03

maltravers · 20/02/2024 11:20

Selecting the media you like is the road to hell as far as I’m concerned- just look at the US. Neither side understands the other because they don’t hear the other side and there is deep division. We have to fight tooth and nail to avoid this.

wrt to some of the discussion that Red has helpfully introduced.

Something has gone wrong with the flow of information. It’s not just that different people are drawing subtly different conclusions from the same evidence. It seems like different intellectual communities no longer share basic foundational beliefs. Maybe nobody cares about the truth anymore, as some have started to worry. Maybe political allegiance has replaced basic reasoning skills. Maybe we’ve all become trapped in echo chambers of our own making – wrapping ourselves in an intellectually impenetrable layer of likeminded friends and web pages and social media feeds.

But there are two very different phenomena at play here, each of which subvert the flow of information in very distinct ways. Let’s call them echo chambers and epistemic bubbles. Both are social structures that systematically exclude sources of information. Both exaggerate their members’ confidence in their beliefs. But they work in entirely different ways, and they require very different modes of intervention. An epistemic bubble is when you don’t hear people from the other side. An echo chamber is what happens when you don’t trust people from the other side.

Current usage has blurred this crucial distinction, so let me introduce a somewhat artificial taxonomy. An ‘epistemic bubble’ is an informational network from which relevant voices have been excluded* *by omission. That omission might be purposeful: we might be selectively avoiding contact with contrary views because, say, they make us uncomfortable…

An ‘echo chamber’ is a social structure from which other relevant voices have been actively discredited. Where an epistemic bubble merely omits contrary views, an echo chamber brings its members to actively distrust outsiders.

[People in an echo chamber are alienated from outside sources. Outside is labelled as malignant and untrustworthy. So, for people like Limbaugh follower under discussion] exposure to contrary views could actually reinforce their views. Limbaugh might offer his followers a conspiracy theory: anybody who criticises him is doing it at the behest of a secret cabal of evil elites, which has already seized control of the mainstream media. His followers are now protected against simple exposure to contrary evidence. In fact, the more they find that the mainstream media calls out Limbaugh for inaccuracy, the more Limbaugh’s predictions will be confirmed. Perversely, exposure to outsiders with contrary views can thus increase echo-chamber members’ confidence in their insider sources, and hence their attachment to their worldview. The philosopher Endre Begby calls this effect ‘evidential pre-emption’. What’s happening is a kind of intellectual judo, in which the power and enthusiasm of contrary voices are turned against those contrary voices through a carefully rigged internal structure of belief.

https://aeon.co/essays/why-its-as-hard-to-escape-an-echo-chamber-as-it-is-to-flee-a-cult

Begby, Endre, 'Evidential Preemption', Prejudice: A Study in Non-Ideal Epistemology (Oxford, 2021; online edn, Oxford Academic, 18 Mar. 2021), https://doi.org/10.1093/oso/9780198852834.003.0007

<p><em>Photo by Jim Young/Reuters</em></p>

Why it’s as hard to escape an echo chamber as it is to flee a cult | Aeon Essays

First you don’t hear other views. Then you can’t trust them. Your personal information network entraps you just like a cult

https://aeon.co/essays/why-its-as-hard-to-escape-an-echo-chamber-as-it-is-to-flee-a-cult

AdamRyan · 20/02/2024 12:17

RedToothBrush · 20/02/2024 11:13

If you think making GB news less bias involves George Galloway as a solution then I can't help you.

On the one hand you say you want more facts, but on the other you suggest George Galloway.

Galloway was 'the left wing' alternative on Russia Today. And way about as much of an alternative as it's possible to not be.

I was trying to think of the left wing equivalent of Farage or JRM, who would happily shock jock for cash! I personally don't like any of them! But it was a thought experiment of how GB news could be more impartial, if they wanted to be.

AdamRyan · 20/02/2024 12:20

duc748 · 20/02/2024 11:16

Exactly. GBN aren't bothered about inviting more Labour figures on board, they're not attempting to become a 'balanced', BBC-like (!) set-up. They have their world-view, and that's that. I don't like the trend, though, of everyone selecting the media that best reflect their biases.

That's the problem duc channels in this country are bound to comply with impartiality in broadcasting rules. Those rules are meant to protect us from propaganda and politically motivated content, I think the rules are a good thing personally.
GB News don't appear to be that fussed about complying, hence multiple ofcom investigations.

AdamRyan · 20/02/2024 12:23

EasternStandard · 20/02/2024 11:11

GB News obviously want to appeal to a demographic

That is possible because the BBC is increasingly failing to make people feel heard

The market will likely grow, also with it reform party

It’s similar in many countries which are seeing a similar growth in politics to the right

It's possible because they are very pushing the rules in a way other broadcasters aren't. Its quite damaging. Will be interesting to see if it drives an "if you can't beat them, join them" mentality and a similar left wing channel arises. Or whether we start to get televangelists on UK TV.

AdamRyan · 20/02/2024 12:24

Apollo441 · 20/02/2024 11:48

I'm sure had they written what they have whilst at the BBC they would have been a pogrom. Jenny Murray was retired for questioning the party line.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding but that seems quite a flippant use of the word "pogrom"?

EasternStandard · 20/02/2024 12:34

AdamRyan · 20/02/2024 12:23

It's possible because they are very pushing the rules in a way other broadcasters aren't. Its quite damaging. Will be interesting to see if it drives an "if you can't beat them, join them" mentality and a similar left wing channel arises. Or whether we start to get televangelists on UK TV.

Only if there was a sizeable left wing market and tbf it’s catered perfectly well by the BBC so it’s unlikely