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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

GC Ultra / GC Lite?

439 replies

Catsanfan · 11/02/2024 09:13

Hi all

I keep seeing these used on X. I'm not totally sure what they mean. Is it in a nutshell GC Ultra = Posie Parker GC Lite = people who think Debbie Haytons a decent bloke.

Or am I totally on the wrong page? So much terminology these days!

TIA

OP posts:
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HBGKC · 12/02/2024 13:48

It is tricky; one the one hand we are saying that a little boy who likes dressing up in his sister's princess outfits should be free to do so without anyone jumping on him and declaring him trans - because we're clear that clothes do not dictate or explicitly denote sex. Women may wear trousers, this doesn't make them men...

However, the obvious corollary then is 'what's the problem with men wearing skirts?'

If clothes do not maketh the man/woman, then I agree with MalagaNights that we are rather stuck in how to stop men dressing in non-normative ways which may or may not be an expression of a paraphilia, regardless if they're working with children or not.

MalagaNights · 12/02/2024 13:55

HBGKC · 12/02/2024 13:48

It is tricky; one the one hand we are saying that a little boy who likes dressing up in his sister's princess outfits should be free to do so without anyone jumping on him and declaring him trans - because we're clear that clothes do not dictate or explicitly denote sex. Women may wear trousers, this doesn't make them men...

However, the obvious corollary then is 'what's the problem with men wearing skirts?'

If clothes do not maketh the man/woman, then I agree with MalagaNights that we are rather stuck in how to stop men dressing in non-normative ways which may or may not be an expression of a paraphilia, regardless if they're working with children or not.

Yes. Someone on a previous thread on this topic said that it's good if men who work with children wear women's clothes as it's a postive role model for boys who want to wear girls clothes.

UtopiaPlanitia · 12/02/2024 13:56

ResisterRex · 12/02/2024 07:09

Saw that too. Not dissimilar to this observation which I posted on another thread:

"🧵Let’s be clear, this article reveals that this was always about party political manoeuvres masquerading as a sophisticated, liberal ‘Third Way’. But it’s based upon multiple, obvs false premises…

Sex realists are not compelling anyone’s speech - they are expressing a value judgment. And so-called AGP is not a safe new identity to be courteous to according to whim, it’s a serious psychological disorder that we cannot afford to shape society and language around.

The article tellingly includes cheap digs at Sunak, when he undoubtedly has the better (if clunky) principle on sex realism.

The project was to offer Starmer and Labour a friendly ‘trans-lite’, AGP compromise, to solve his ridiculous 99.9% daftness, but it’s backfired terribly."

x.com/nosecretlessons/status/1756278920511443293?s=46&t=WHoOZ_3Kv5G6-FyQuvE0LQ

In another, much longer thread, I found this from a part of a long Kara Dansky gave me pause for thought:

"... If your goal is “Get rid of self-ID but let some people legally identify as the opposite sex because of hormones, surgery, etc.,” then I can see why “using opposite-sex pronouns is sometimes strategic” makes sense as an argument

That’s not my goal. My goal as a radical feminist (I do not call myself GC) is to protect the sex-based rights of women and girls and to stop the abolition of sex. I don’t think use of opposite-sex pronouns is ever strategic in accomplishing that particular goal..."

x.com/kdansky/status/1756757496268480588?s=46&t=WHoOZ_3Kv5G6-FyQuvE0LQ

I agree, Kara’s thread was excellent: she laid out her thinking clearly and kept her objective in mind. She stated her boundaries calmly and clearly.

I found Clare Pages’s analysis interesting too - thanks for posting it 👍👍.

Barry Wall has also pointed out (on Twitter) that there is 'jostling' going on within the ranks of public sphere GC campaigners and points out that jostling happens frequently in collaborative efforts. And, to a point, I agree with him and don’t expect the people involved in campaigning to be a hive mind.

I think it’s the condescension and the deliberate conflation of disagreeing views with trying to compel speech (from people like Turner, Kavanagh and Doyle) that upsets me most. As well as what comes across as the matey-ness in closing ranks against the plebs. I’m a nobody but I contribute what I can in terms of effort, support and money; this weekend I’ve been made aware that, seemingly, that contribution is often viewed with less respect than I had imagined. I think, in future, my best allocation of effort is to try to keep my eyes on the goal and contribute to crowdjustice cases that have a chance of clarifying legal rights.

lifeturnsonadime · 12/02/2024 14:00

@Metamorphosising I agree, although I'd rather (maybe naively) believe that what we have as a result of the 2 acts are unintended consequences. If you have more information on who you believe lobbied with the direct intent at the time I'd be really interested, I asked the same question of Datun upthread.

With regards to the protected using the protected characteristic of sex to say that a tw is creating a hostile environment then this would surely turn on fact and degree? I'd like to think that if we had someone like the Canadian Teacher in the work place a woman would be able to argue this point.

Unfortunately the competing rights and the way that Stonewall have lobbied means that this kind of thing hasn't, as far as I know, gone to Tribunal.

And then women have been silenced.

I totally agree that a debate now needs to be had.

UtopiaPlanitia · 12/02/2024 14:04

Helleofabore · 12/02/2024 09:55

Warrior you have just said what I thought while reading Stella’s substack.

I thought there is a huge fucking difference between feeling a charge because you are feeling confident and this flows to even wearing what you, personally, think will attract you someone’s sexual interest. Vs wearing something that arouses you. Or something that gets you the reaction that you then use for your wank fodder for later when the people giving you that reaction is just them being kind. And they may even be children.

But hey. I must be missing something because Stella sees little or no difference.

Hannah Berrelli had an interesting analysis of Stella’s opinion on AGP vs lesbian clothing choices:

https://x.com/HannahBerrelli/status/1756623318520619462?s=20

'In attempting to draw an equivalence between autogynephila and lesbians wearing clothes bought in the men's section, Stella has misunderstood the distinction between an autoerotic fetish and non-pathological human sexuality. I believe this error comes from her background in humanist psychology, where the therapist develops unconditional positive regard for the client as part of the therapeutic process. This may or may not be helpful within the context of psychotherapy, but it can lead to a distorted point of view outside of it. It should not be carried outside of sessions, or become the basis with which to make other judgements about people outside of that therapeutic relationship.

The difference between a GNC woman feeling confident and ‘sexy’ in men’s clothes is that she isn’t engaging in a fetish. How can we know this? Because a fetish necessarily takes something as an object (in place of a genital), the typical examples being feet, or leather, etc. There is a process of objectification going on. What’s the object for AGPs? Women. What’s the object for GNC women in men’s clothes? There isn’t one, they’re relating to themselves as a subject and expressing their subjectivity. If Stella O’Malley had said the equivalent to an AGP was a woman finding it sexually exciting to walk around brandishing a stonking fake penis for all to see (roughly the equivalent maybe for AGP’s objectification of breasts) and masturbating in their father’s sweaty shirts, then maybe she’d have a case, but she didn’t give that example, because it doesn’t exist. GNC women in men’s shoes are expressing their subjectivity, AGP’s in women’s dresses are expressing a relationship to an external object (women, their idea of a woman) and indulging a fetish. A fetish is necessarily an objectification, not even of oneself, but a body part, or external object.

When Stella O’Malley sets up that GNC women in men’s clothes are perhaps an equivalent to AGPs, she is also setting up the ground for all women, such as a feminine woman who feels confident and sexy in a dress, is an AGP equivalent. In doing so she is annulling the fetishistic aspect of it and all that comes with it (compulsion / obsessionality, its replacement of normal sexuality [interest in another’s subjectivity] as withdrawal into the object occurs, masturbation, necessary dehumanisation, etc.] GNC women do not relate to flannel shirts as fetish objects.

Expressing your subjectivity within the masculine / feminine dichotomy is a totally non-pathological, decidedly not autoerotic part of human subjectivity, that is arguably practiced much more by straight people than gay people. How many gay couples do you know where both partners are rigidly gendered (masc / fem), versus straight couples? Its far more prevalent in the straight world. It's just not considered pathological when straight people do it because there is no homosexuality to do the work of pathologization (which is why Stella went to GNC lesbians, rather than discussing straight men who wear men’s suits everyday for work and mechanics overalls at the weekend whilst working on their car collection).'

Helleofabore · 12/02/2024 14:25

UtopiaPlanitia · 12/02/2024 14:04

Hannah Berrelli had an interesting analysis of Stella’s opinion on AGP vs lesbian clothing choices:

https://x.com/HannahBerrelli/status/1756623318520619462?s=20

'In attempting to draw an equivalence between autogynephila and lesbians wearing clothes bought in the men's section, Stella has misunderstood the distinction between an autoerotic fetish and non-pathological human sexuality. I believe this error comes from her background in humanist psychology, where the therapist develops unconditional positive regard for the client as part of the therapeutic process. This may or may not be helpful within the context of psychotherapy, but it can lead to a distorted point of view outside of it. It should not be carried outside of sessions, or become the basis with which to make other judgements about people outside of that therapeutic relationship.

The difference between a GNC woman feeling confident and ‘sexy’ in men’s clothes is that she isn’t engaging in a fetish. How can we know this? Because a fetish necessarily takes something as an object (in place of a genital), the typical examples being feet, or leather, etc. There is a process of objectification going on. What’s the object for AGPs? Women. What’s the object for GNC women in men’s clothes? There isn’t one, they’re relating to themselves as a subject and expressing their subjectivity. If Stella O’Malley had said the equivalent to an AGP was a woman finding it sexually exciting to walk around brandishing a stonking fake penis for all to see (roughly the equivalent maybe for AGP’s objectification of breasts) and masturbating in their father’s sweaty shirts, then maybe she’d have a case, but she didn’t give that example, because it doesn’t exist. GNC women in men’s shoes are expressing their subjectivity, AGP’s in women’s dresses are expressing a relationship to an external object (women, their idea of a woman) and indulging a fetish. A fetish is necessarily an objectification, not even of oneself, but a body part, or external object.

When Stella O’Malley sets up that GNC women in men’s clothes are perhaps an equivalent to AGPs, she is also setting up the ground for all women, such as a feminine woman who feels confident and sexy in a dress, is an AGP equivalent. In doing so she is annulling the fetishistic aspect of it and all that comes with it (compulsion / obsessionality, its replacement of normal sexuality [interest in another’s subjectivity] as withdrawal into the object occurs, masturbation, necessary dehumanisation, etc.] GNC women do not relate to flannel shirts as fetish objects.

Expressing your subjectivity within the masculine / feminine dichotomy is a totally non-pathological, decidedly not autoerotic part of human subjectivity, that is arguably practiced much more by straight people than gay people. How many gay couples do you know where both partners are rigidly gendered (masc / fem), versus straight couples? Its far more prevalent in the straight world. It's just not considered pathological when straight people do it because there is no homosexuality to do the work of pathologization (which is why Stella went to GNC lesbians, rather than discussing straight men who wear men’s suits everyday for work and mechanics overalls at the weekend whilst working on their car collection).'

That is interesting. Thanks.

theilltemperedclavecinist · 12/02/2024 15:02

Social opprobrium cannot be underestimated. I agree with this but fear we're now so far down the 'liberal' route of 'wear what you want' being the culture it's going to be hard to restore this mechanism that previously worked so well on this issue.

The MSM don't seem to have reacted to DH's 'revelation' at all. I assume that, because his book was serialised in the DM, their attack dog opinionators were told 'family hold back'. Otherwise surely eg Jan Moir would have come up with something like "Now, darling of the WOKE LEFT Debbie Hayton has revealed so-called trans is just a SEXUAL FETISH, do we really want them sharing CHANGING ROOMS with our children?"

Datun · 12/02/2024 17:44

lifeturnsonadime · 12/02/2024 13:21

But personally I would remove gender re-assignment from the equality act. I absolutely believe it was inserted for exactly this reason (AGP normalisation).

Datun, I'm really interested in this and why you believe this to be the case.

From what I recall about legal commentary at the time that the Act was introduced the legal profession believed it, not to be limited to necessary, but mostly for males who believed they were trapped in the wrong body/ looking to go onto medical transition.

My thinking is that the legislation then enabled the likes of Stonewall to widen the definition to cross dressers/ agps rather than it being the intention.

Either way we are in the same place.

This is where I need someone like R0wantrees because she's brilliant collating all the data.

It's my understanding that places were being targeted long before Stonewall decided to jump on the bandwagon. And it was probably less jumping on the bandwagon and more that they were captured, deliberately.

It's the MO. We see it everywhere.

It was the Beaumont Society who, I believe, first targeted the legislation. Back then it was the sex discrimination act.

The Beaumont Society is/was a support group for autogynephiles.

I don't think you're ever going get any of these men to say yes, we're transvestite fetishists and we want to be able to perform this in public.

But you do have to look at who's behind it.

Even my own first foray into reading the politics of it, with regards to Maria Miller's equality report, I was shocked at how they didn't ask women's groups for any written submissions.

Instead they asked, among others, a flasher, a nutcase trans group who said all transwomen prisoners should be released instantly and be able to operate on one another, and a man who has spent his entire adult life promoting extreme pornography and lowering the age of the participants.

Since Debbie Hayton has told everybody he's AGP, he and several other people have acknowledged that the male sex drive is something like the biggest motivator known to man.

Keep that in mind when you're looking at who advocates for what and why - and where.

WarriorN · 12/02/2024 18:14

That's a great thread @UtopiaPlanitia, and some interesting insights in the replies too

Catsanfan · 12/02/2024 19:57

OP here and trying to be less stupid, but aren't we folding in on ourselves? For example, on X we've got some GC big hitters defending Dennis K and others calling him a bizarre little man. Maybe I just don't have the intelligence for this topic! I thought I did until the apparent in fighting 😪

OP posts:
Karensalright · 12/02/2024 20:15

@Catsanfan Totally agree with you

Helleofabore · 12/02/2024 20:17

I suspect that it will all settle down again. People won't forget but they will move on. It has happened before, although maybe not this big. Or this sustained.

RethinkingLife · 12/02/2024 20:31

Keep that in mind when you're looking at who advocates for what and why - and where.

Helpful overview of history: https://womenspeakscotland.com/2021/06/23/the-trans-umbrella-is-older-than-you-think/

I'm including this for the final sentence of the section I've quoted. It's from Gay Liberation Front journal - Come Together - issue 11: Lesbians Come Together. It's from a piece by the GLF Transvestite, Transsexual and Drag Queen group, originally published in 1972 (and available for download):

A more central question is how to relate to other women. When we talk about our hopes and fantasies, it becomes apparent that what we want above all is to be accepted as women, primarily by other women. But will we achieve this by looking for ways in which we share experience with regular women or by developing a unique transvestite consciousness?

Sometimes the second approach seems real militant and proud, at other times it seems a cop-out, accepting the prejudiced view that we're not women, that we're some freaky third sex (or fourth or fifth?). Possibly we can find some light by considering the situation of black women and gay women, who develop black pride and gay pride, but still explore their feelings as women. Think how much more inspiring and beautiful the women's revolution will be when it joyously includes all women. Think of a Holloway demo with transvestite, transsexual and drag-queen women, gay women and heterosexual women, black, yellow, brown and white women, working women, housewives and career women. Certainly, whatever course we take as transvestites, transsexuals and drag queens, we must first destroy the trap wherein regular women set up standards by which they accept or reject us .

https://archive.org/details/cometogetheryear00walt/page/8/mode/2up

The Trans Umbrella Is Older Than You Think

Years ago I was a ‘trans ally’. I thought ‘trans’ meant transsexual and my idea of a ‘trans woman’ was someone who had had genital surgery and was quietly going …

https://womenspeakscotland.com/2021/06/23/the-trans-umbrella-is-older-than-you-think

Catsanfan · 12/02/2024 20:36

Karensalright · 12/02/2024 20:15

@Catsanfan Totally agree with you

Thank you so much for this. This is really worrying me I hope it blows over

OP posts:
Karensalright · 12/02/2024 20:40

@Catsanfan Don’t be worried, there is problems in any such loose affiliation that contains left and right views in it its just best to debate and put across whatever point of view in good faith.

SomeCatFromJapan · 12/02/2024 21:00

I really hope this does settle down soon. It's upsetting and depressing watching people I've followed for ages and assumed were all on the same team fall out with each other so viciously.

Catsanfan · 12/02/2024 21:30

SomeCatFromJapan · 12/02/2024 21:00

I really hope this does settle down soon. It's upsetting and depressing watching people I've followed for ages and assumed were all on the same team fall out with each other so viciously.

Me too 😥

OP posts:
RethinkingLife · 12/02/2024 23:17

Just realised that the Terven Academicals Summer School (upthread) must include some dance training and a final performance for our graduation ceremony.

Witches Dance 2023

Frenchtown Witches Dance 2023Music: Schuttel Deinen Speck by Peter FoxChoreography adapted and led by Tricia Hurley from the choreography by Wolfshager Hexen...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTjfEye0rrQ

UtopiaPlanitia · 13/02/2024 01:30

With respect to the current discussion, I found a tweet from Mattie Watkins that made me think that this division is heavily related to Hayton being considered as part of a social circle by many public GC campaigners.

It’s possible that, in this social-slash-campaigning group, members are not making a distinction between what Hayton is actually campaigning for and what they themselves are ostensibly campaigning for because they view him as an ally, on account of Hayton being friendly towards them and claiming to also be gender critical. So, for them, every conversation about issues that involve Hayton ticks 'talking about my friend' rather than ‘discussing proposals from someone with a different outcome in mind than me' in their brains.

Unless of course they do agree with Hayton’s preferred outcome, in which case they’ve got less conflict between reality and ideology than other campaigners who don’t believe there’s much chance of a realistic middle way that will somehow keep women and children safe while also allowing men to deny biology/have access to women’s rights and spaces.

https://x.com/thepeaklady/status/1757201613977194602?s=20

'I think people are struggling to recognise the difference between what is being demanded in your personal, private speech and demands of you as an activist for a specific cause.'

MalagaNights · 13/02/2024 07:49

It really is unpleasant and fracturing on twitter.

I've seen some call 'the GC elite' scabs.
They crossed the picket lane.
The elite need smacking down by the base.

Others saying some Ultras are authoritarian trying to control language like the Nazis.

The blocking going on is wild.

Some people are obviously taking it very hard. Both those high profiles being attacked and those now being blocked by them.

It does seem like a fracturing of the movement. Hopefully it will be restored once it reverts back to clear issues we all agree on. And I guess now we know that pronouns are going to be a tricky topic and will respond accordingly.

It's a horrible time for a lot of people. People are feeling very shut out after been blocked. I hope it blows over soon.

PriOn1 · 13/02/2024 07:52

The unnecessary unpleasantness seems to be continuing.

Christina Buttons is Colin Wright’s girlfriend, according to various posts. I’ve always had a lot of respect for Colin, but Christina Buttons seems to be unable to argue her point or listen to what other women are explaining.

Three images here, one from Edie Wyatt when Colin has blocked her, from a thread where she explains how distressing she finds it.

The second, though I couldn’t fit the name on screen with the entire post, is Christina’s (I think reasonable) explanation of why they are pursuing the path they are.

The third is a post responding to Christine’s post above (again, reasonable, certainly not in any way unpleasant) from a woman explaining where radical feminists are coming from and why they are approaching things from a different angle. Christina’s response is, again, deeply unpleasant. There’s no reason for it and no excuse, I don’t think.

GC Ultra / GC Lite?
GC Ultra / GC Lite?
GC Ultra / GC Lite?
RethinkingLife · 13/02/2024 07:56

Utopia - Thoughtful points.

Hayton is recognised by an in-group as a friend and it feels like there is a concordance of minds and an alignment of desired outcomes. There are friendship ties that lead to the use of courtesy pronouns despite the polite social fiction that DH claims to be receptive to sex-based pronouns. The in-group have high profile media access and platforms. There tends to be an informal crossover of their use of courtesy pronouns in their private exchanges with public use.

Social psychologists such as Cialdini explain these phenomena well. And Solzhenitsyn offers a relevant perspective in Live not by lies. I would also wonder if empathy bias towards friends can lead us not only to resist those who we perceive to be criticising a friend (shades of acting as flying monkeys for narcissists or rescuers in TA persecution triangles) but overlooking the valid concerns of people outside that friendship or empathy circle. It's playing out more widely here because of the crossover of the personal and public sphere. It's unfortunate that the sphere has consequences in that it frames discussions and outcomes for others in a wide range of areas and services like healthcare, education, prisons. Helen Joyce has frequently observed that most captured workplaces have a person with a family member who has trans status. How many MPs have spoken of a constituent whose story moved them to overlook the consequences for others?

However, mounting evidence has shown that people's empathy is often biased toward (i.e., felt more strongly for) others that they are close or similar to, igniting a debate over whether empathy is inherently morally flawed and should be abandoned in efforts to strive toward greater equity.

Fowler Z, Law KF, Gaesser B. Against Empathy Bias: The Moral Value of Equitable Empathy. Psychol Sci. 2021 May;32(5):766-779. doi: 10.1177/0956797620979965. Epub 2021 Apr 28. PMID: 33909983.

Cameron CD, Conway P, Scheffer JA. Empathy regulation, prosociality, and moral judgment. Curr Opin Psychol. 2022 Apr;44:188-195. doi: 10.1016/j.copsyc.2021.09.011. Epub 2021 Sep 21. PMID: 34695643.

MalagaNights · 13/02/2024 08:07

PriOn1 · 13/02/2024 07:52

The unnecessary unpleasantness seems to be continuing.

Christina Buttons is Colin Wright’s girlfriend, according to various posts. I’ve always had a lot of respect for Colin, but Christina Buttons seems to be unable to argue her point or listen to what other women are explaining.

Three images here, one from Edie Wyatt when Colin has blocked her, from a thread where she explains how distressing she finds it.

The second, though I couldn’t fit the name on screen with the entire post, is Christina’s (I think reasonable) explanation of why they are pursuing the path they are.

The third is a post responding to Christine’s post above (again, reasonable, certainly not in any way unpleasant) from a woman explaining where radical feminists are coming from and why they are approaching things from a different angle. Christina’s response is, again, deeply unpleasant. There’s no reason for it and no excuse, I don’t think.

I've been slightly following that debacle.

It is Edie who called them scabs though.

She's also been arguing with then blocked by Denis.

She's also obviously suffering hugely from a disbelief that she's now been frozen out. You can imagine the psychological impact is devastating.

Everyone needs to take a step back. Spend some time in RL and remember that people on twitter are people.

Woman2023 · 13/02/2024 08:12

I think loyalty from empathy towards friends functions a bit like scientific results that show your favourite theory to be wrong.

No scientist just drops the theory after one problem is found, they modify the theory to account for the new information.

They keep doing this until there's a tipping point and a better simpler theory is proposed.

This makes perfect sense otherwise they'd be flipping around all the time.

Same with loyalty towards friends, instinctively we support them until the evidence becomes overwhelming.

Swipe left for the next trending thread