Sunak in PMQs - thread 2

[AdamRyan]

Ongoing discussion about whether Sunak cocked up in PMQs by raising "what women are" when Esthey Ghey was present, whether Starmer cocked up by raising Esther in response to Sunak, whether Sunak had planned the line knowing EG would be there or whether Starmer set a trap he unwittingly fell into.

Many segues into gender politics and left right debates.

All views welcome.
Thread 1:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5002735-starmer-furious-that-sunak-should-mention-his-definition-of-woman

I think carla is on a wind up

I hope so.

Surely no one can really think that Serrano is a good example of feminism!

😂These days, we're presented with so many individuals who we're expected to defend:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-64729029

Right so your research beats there's, even though they spoke to a larger number of children and you just talked to your son who was uncomfortable and probably felt uncomfortable talking about it with his mum or maybe he just said what you wanted him to, like kids often do. But of course your individual research is unbiased and you have no agenda. Lots of talk of research here but I don't see anyone posting any research, considering you are so knowledgeable Let's have a look at your unbiased sources then and your references. Let's see who you are citing.

The pressure on children to conform and acquiesce to the demands of transactivists is immense. From extreme emotional manipulation in "training" and materials used in schools on children too young to critically evaluate "TWAW and you're a bigot if you say otherwise".

Of course, when you ask girls if they want to share showers and changing roooms with boys, they're very clear that they don't. And as they get older and for those less affected by the need to "follow the crowd", this is what they say:

https://www.transgendertrend.com/gender-indoctrination-schools-teenage-girls-testimony/

Then there's my daughter, she's autistic and was gender non conforming when younger, she has largely grown out of it post puberty.

She is thoroughly of the 'be kind' camp and really hates JKR but can't really vocalise why (except trans women are vulnerable etc). But even she thinks that it would be unfair if she had to compete against trans boys in her sport.

Do you think my 14 year old daughter should be put in the position that the girls at WiSpa or that Riley Gaines were put in of being forced to undress next to a male bodied person. Because that's what trans women are. Human's can't change sex. Some trans women, like your lovely example of Serranom go as far as fetishising women and girls. You don't think our daughters should be able to say no to those males.

You don't think much of consent do you?

Seriously what does this prove? Of course they shouldn't have been sent to the women's prison, it's a no- brainer, a terrible decision, and lots are made in prisons all the time, but what has this to do with the majority of trans people? Like saying all police officers are rapists because some were found out to have raped women, of course there will be people who take advantage of any situation, you can't generalise like this.

So should all men be allowed in female single sex spaces then? Seeing as we can't generalise.

But it's OK for teenage girls to feel uncomfortable in school toilets and changing rooms, eh?

It's OK for girls and women to lose out to males in sport?

It's Ok for women to be told that there is no single sex rape provision and to reframe their trauma if they don't want to be treated by or with a male?

It's OK that children (often autistic girls) are being put on pathways of social transition that leads on to radical mastectomies to remove their healthy breast tissue and to taking cross sex hormones that result in infertility?

etc, etc.....

AdamRyan · Today 15:00

I think your SIL comment sounds OK, just slight hyperbole rather than "putting words in your mouth". Some people just do talk like that.....the misunderstanding is the fault of the people who overheard the tail end of the conversation and took it out of context. I'm sure when you said "Of course I've heard of trainspotting, I just didn't recognise Danny Boyle's name" your family would just go "oh, right"

I did tell her that she knew perfectly well I hadn't said that. But, if that point flies a mile over your head, I'm not surprised that others do, too.

Your child will be in situations they feel uncomfortable with and will meet some weird people in their life and of course you need to talk to them and make it clear they should never be made to do anything they don't want to do. Of course I believe in consent! I understand why the MP Dawn Butler was rattled by Mumsnet its a bit like a religious cult on here. Don't worry I will stick to the threads on paint colours and cat beds in future. Those threads are very useful.

Ah so it's fine to make girls even more uncomfortable to give males access to everything they want?

I see.

Wanting to keep women and girls safe is not being akin to a religious cult, but rather genderism is . No humans can change sex. Putting the wishes of males above the safety and dignity of girls is supporting male supremacy. The males get what they want, no matter the harmful impact on females.

Carlapig1 · Today 16:34

However absurd and cruel the British and US anti-trans bullies are, the global political momentum is in the other direction. Most countries are improving their trans rights and many are puzzled or concerned by the petty hatred in the UK. They have learned one of the things we learned about lesbians and gays after the hysteria of the ’80s: letting people who are doing no harm to others be themselves improves not only their lives but also society.

Of course, all of us agree that if they want to go about their lives, harming nobody and behaving courteously, then they should be free to do so. It's a fact that 48% of transw in British prisons are there for offences of sex and violence against women.

That's as opposed to 20% for the rest of the male prison population; if that doesn't make you think, I don't know what will. Many have used their trans status to get women and children to let their guard down, before carrying out offences.

Have a look here:
https://transcrimeuk.com/

https://transcrimeuk.com/2024/01/25/jamie-abigail-waller/
https://transcrimeuk.com/2023/06/25/stuart-bulling/
https://transcrimeuk.com/2021/12/23/john-claire-goodier/

There's masses of it.

https://terfisaslur.com/

More lovely, gentle people, just wanting to escape bullies...

Your child will be in situations they feel uncomfortable with
I think the situation where a girl or woman is using a changing room and a male person walks in and starts taking their clothes off and look at them is slightly more than 'feeling uncomfortable'.

and will meet some weird people in their life
Male people watching you undress is slightly more than just 'weird'.

and of course you need to talk to them and make it clear they should never be made to do anything they don't want to do.
So what is the solution for women and girls who don't want to do that? Situations I know in real life is change at home and don't use the changing room, use the toilets or stop playing sports/swimming etc.

Of course I believe in consent!
Choices are now consent to being looked at by male people and being flashed or stay away. Wow, what a choice.

In five years time governments will be publishing research that says girls don't play sports anymore and wondering why not....

Great post, the only choice girls will have will be to put up and shut up or self exclude.

That's no choice.

And @Carlapig1 is holding up this male person as a feminist we should listen to. Civil words fail me.

There was another charmer TW who described woman as nothing more than dead eyes, open mouths and expectant arseholes, maybe we should listen to them too.

clear they should never be made to do anything they don't want to do.

Like strip off in front a male they don't know in an enclosed space?

I'm an ex teacher, with a daughter currently teaching. And what I know is that the generations now coming through have had their fill of gender nonsense - even as they have to entertain it from some of their activist teachers and over indulged classmates. There is often a roll of the eyes and a sardonic wit; with jokes about being "cancelled"

My seventeen year old neice thinks the trans identified kids in her school are " attention seeking".

Interesting article that puts this debate in a bit more context for me.
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2022-06-29/how-anti-trans-feminism-took-hold-in-the-u-k

I would describe that article as inaccurate, ill-informed, one-sided and misleading - rather than interesting.

However I did appreciate this bit...
Now, gender critical ideas and groups had certainly existed before this point, but it was especially the GRA reform consultation that made these groups in the U.K. prominent and vocal. At the time of the consultation, there was a large bunch of new gender critical organizations that sort of sprung up from the ground and they were founded specifically for the purpose of resisting the proposed reforms, and indeed, they succeeded. The proposed reforms did not, on the whole, materialize, to a large part because of the campaigns these groups put forward.

Woohoo! Take a bow, wimmin!

And definitely do not take it as any kind of context for the UK's reputation as Terf Island. Read Material Girls by Kathleen Stock if you want to know why UK women (not only feminists) are opposed to gender ideology. She also usefully clarifies the various different meanings of "gender" which are unhelpfully conflated or used interchangeably in that article.

Yep. We've gone from be kind, to I've not really thought about it, to anti trans accusations and posting the usual TRA articles.

You lot are actually very easily wound up though, there are some very insecure parents on this thread😉

Long may we stay insecure. The constant worry keeps us on our toes from those who are certain about what our children should be comfortable with.

It's always the same pattern - start with faux naive questions but then the self control slips and the "anti trans bigot" accusations start. 😂