Sunak in PMQs - thread 2

[AdamRyan]

Ongoing discussion about whether Sunak cocked up in PMQs by raising "what women are" when Esthey Ghey was present, whether Starmer cocked up by raising Esther in response to Sunak, whether Sunak had planned the line knowing EG would be there or whether Starmer set a trap he unwittingly fell into.

Many segues into gender politics and left right debates.

All views welcome.
Thread 1:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5002735-starmer-furious-that-sunak-should-mention-his-definition-of-woman

I can't support any feminist movement that advocates "decriminalisation of sex work". Its mealy mouthed, neither legalisation nor criminalisation, and will lead to the continued sexual exploitation of women, particularly vulnerable women. And the continued message from society that consent is something that can be bought. No thanks.

It just seems as if you are not very familiar or au fait with some of the central issues when it comes to the critique of gender ideology. In fact you don't even seem to recognise that it is an ideology.

It was You brought up your age as an excuse for why you were not familiar with terminology.

This is not a "newspaper led hysteria". Many of us here have been active and involved for years in trying to force the public debate and get it into the newspapers - which it now is. But these developments do not happen without people acting to make sure they happen in the first instance.

There are plenty of people here who have themselves sufferd dysphoria and can describe it. There are plenty of stories from de-transitioners who can also describe it. There is plenty of material out there if you have any interest.

We can all care about multiple issues, not just one or two.

Carlapig1
"Some authors, such as Julia Serano and Emi Koyama, have founded a stream within feminism called transfeminism which views the struggle for the rights of trans people and trans women in particular as an integral part of the feminist struggle for all women's rights"

No. Feminism is the struggle for the rights of all women. Men who claim to be women are not women. The rights - strictly speaking, privileges - they want are inimical to women's rights and freedoms. There is no reason at all for feminism to include them, let alone centre them. Women who claim to be men, on the other hand, are part of the feminist struggle.

Well you and I are never going to agree.

And that's OK.

For me, I know that human's can't change sex.

I know that women (by that I mean those of us born female) need single sex spaces for safety and dignity.

That's not transphobic, it's putting females first. Women who centre males in their feminism, are not in my opinion, feminists.

Then there is a thin line to men's right's activism if what you really support is putting the wishes of these males above the real needs of vulnerable women.

Because ultimately trans women can be safe without accessing women's single sex spaces, but no suggestion of that nature is ever good enough.

More one sided ignorance...and I'm sorry if you find that "cruel".

Britain is actually leading the way in the push back against this ideology ( a set of idea and constructs which seek to explain how the world works); and gradually more and more other countries are waking up and starting to take a step back.

The George Soros 'Open Society' Foundation is actually responsibile for pushing trans ideology around the world, inclding into countries with no history of it. It is borne of a post modernistic American campus set of ideologies that are actually quite alien and indifferent to the cultures onto which they have been imposed.

Wanting to keep women and children safe is not 'petty hatred'.

Julia Serrano is a man.

"WHILE I NEVER REALLY BELIEVED THE CLICHÉ ABOUT WOMEN BEING
GOOD FOR ONLY ONE THING, I FOUND THAT THAT SENTIMENT KEPT
CREEPING INTO MY FANTASIES. I WOULD IMAGINE MYSELF BEING SOLD
INTO SEX SLAVERY AND HAVING STRANGE MEN TAKE ADVANTAGE OF ME.
IT'S CALLED FORCED FEMINIZATION, AND IT'S NOT REALLY ABOUT SEX. IT IS
ABOUT TURNING THE HUMILIATION YOU FEEL INTO PLEASURE,
TRANSFORMING THE LOSS OF MALE PRIVILEGE INTO THE BEST FUCK EVER."
JULIA SERANO
"WHIPPING GIRL"

Jesus.

And we're supposed to listen to that male fetishist for feminist theory?

The world's gone mad.

I know Julia Serrano is male. Are you agreeing or disagreeing with my point?

I think the point was to @Carlapig1 who claimed this person as an example of feminist theory.

Sorry - I responded to your post by mistake.......it was meant for Carlapig

Lol I don't find you cruel, just close minded and a tad patronising. I am sorry if I don't have your obsessive interest in the subject, but it takes a few minutes of googling to see a wide array of differing points of views and yours is just one; it's a big world out there and many don't agree with you, including me.

Ah. Yes, that would make more sense!

Men can be feminists.

We used to a better quality of discussion on here. Perhaps you are not familiar or have not been reading or engaged with the issues for long?

You keep using words and terms ( " hung up" " "Punching down") and so on and introducing your age, then berating people for also using or referencing them.

You haven't even said what it is specifically you disagree with. Do you understand the concept of an ideology for a start - and do you not recognise Gender Theory as an ideology?

So you don't believe that vulnerable women should have spaces free from all males?

Does that extend to prisons and refuges where women are at their most vulnerable?

What about women who are sexual abuse survivors who don't want to come across males in changing facilities or women's toilets? What about religious minority women who may now have to stay at home?

Or don't those women matter?

My 17:17 post was to RebelliousCow and lifeturnsonadime

The ones who think they should be in women's single sex spaces definitely are not feminist.

Serrano the trans woman who you referenced fantasises about women only being good for one thing? Do you think Serrano wishes should come before the needs of vulnerable women

Well you stay with your better class of discussion and try not to engage with anyone that doesn't agree with you and for gods sake stay away from most young people as you might get a shock at what they think about the subject.

You see this is interesting my 17 year old son and his mates agree with my views.

My son was quite disturbed when he was at the urinal at college that a trans boy went in and used the cubical. It made him feel really uncomfortable.

Indeed. CarlaPig1 would be surprised at young people's opinions.

I did say most as I am being careful in this high level discussion to be accurate and of course to research !

Majority of young people are pro-trans and would support a friend coming out, research finds - Just Like Us

Ds1 and partner know trans people and have them as friends, certainly doesn’t mean they support males in female sports and prisons

really depends on how the questions are asked

Well that's hardly high level research is it? For a start look at who has commissioned it and what their agenda is?

Then look at the questions they were asked.

Of course they will support their friends.

But if you ask teenage girls about how they feel by sharing changing rooms and dormitories or even girls toilets in school with trans girls, or teenage boys like my son if they feel comfortable with a trans girl walking in on them using a urinal , they'd probably give a very different answer.