Andrew Doyle

[MalagaNights]

Anyone been following this on twitter? He's been attacked for calling Debbie Hayton she in an interview.
Some horrible homophobic stuff and he has left twitter.

https://x.com/fem_mb/status/1754747745967988982?s=20

The attacks on Janice Turner, Stella Creasey, Kathleen Stock and now Andrew Doyle, people who've been at the forefront of putting themselves on the line over this issue, for years, is so utterly depressing.

Sure, disagree with their decisions make your point but accept good people, really good people in these cases, may make come to a different decision to you sometimes. Particularly when it's complex, tricky, and still being worked through.

Some GC feminists are really revealing themselves to be as authoritian as the TRAs.

I watched the interview and didn't see Andrew Doyle bowing to the pronoun requirements. Hayton has stated to not caring about being called male or people using male pronouns. Andrew Doyle made is own mind up and in my world that is acceptable. Whoever is hounding him, is irrelevant, this is where the debate (not) is and perhaps we are all at some fault.

If being GC now means I have to bow to an orthodoxy, then count me out. I am perfectly capable of making my own decisions.

Andrew Doyle is really excellent, he is never puffed up with indignation, he uses humour and intellect to get his point across. He has my support, more like him please.

I agree with AD about the infrastructure and inflammatory algorithms that make it difficult to participate in thoughtful exchanges on difficult issues on Twix.

Its madness to blame women for comments made on twitter.

As for this, I thought most of us accepted blame and condemnation for pretty much anything - including the Battle of Teutoberg Forest and the Loss of the Dead Sea Scrolls amongst others. Mostly see the comments here.

http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/14/will-you-condemn-athon/

Twitter is a cesspit- AD should come on over here to reasoned and 'in the spirit' debate!

There's a difference between abuse and women robustly challenging use of wrong-sex pronouns - i.e. mangling the English language - on the say so of certain men.

As soon as you call someone like Hayton 'she' you're throwing transwidows and children of transitioners under the bus and making a decision that they are less important than an individual man.

AD should read the transwidows threads on here, all of them, and then see what he thinks.

But he can use the speech he wants, and we're free to call out the misogyny in his actions. That's what a free society is, and AD presumably isn't against women having robust opinions?

I wonder how bad the abuse of him was compared to say, the abuse JKR's received, or Joanna Cherry? Or, more recently the remarkable Linzi. I bet it's no worse than lesbian women receive regularly.

My solution would be to get off twitter. I'm not on twitter so can't read any of it, for which I am grateful.

This

i like him and i am really sorry that he has been subjected to homophobic abuse

this will have come from feminists, and non feminist women and obviously men

i am not using GC because its another phrase/word that is losing its meaning for me

Yes, I'm sure there will have been a wide range who committed the homophobic abuse. Also bots. Not just humans.

Why anyone stays on twitter, I don't know. There was some study that a ridiculously high proportion of posts weren't even from humans.

This is not directed at anyone on mumsnet, i am someone who won’t be scolded into or out of something, i just go quiet and carry on with what i am doing

i do use preferred pronouns and sometimes i don’t, i agree with datuns journey comment. I might be a certain way down the road from other posters and maybe i will never get any further down it, maybe i will 🤷🏻

Didn’t even think of bots 😳

My solution would be to get off twitter. I'm not on twitter so can't read any of it, for which I am grateful.

It seems AD has gone to another site and Twix will me a broadcast mode medium rather than somewhere for exchanges.

I'm a bit nonplussed by the 'no-one on our side would ever do that' kind of responses.

Before realising it was about a Twix-related matter, I was uncertain whether the stramash was about the discussion on FWR so I was baffled. On balance, a lot of the recent froth seems to be about Twix. That's a shame in many ways because I understand the principle of level access and exposure to other people's bubbles and world but it seems we can't have this nice thing because it's trivially easy for a couple of individuals or bots to ruin it for literally millions.

Every time I go onto twix, mostly from links here, I have new zero post followers that I have to go and remove and block.

The whole way that twix is set up feeds whatever beast of the moment. There are absolutely millions of bots. There are bots that have been programmed to post about every single hot topic as it arises, and change on a daily basis. There is no consistency to them. If you look at some of the most virulent haters, they hate everything, not just gay broadcasters who call men 'she'.

I think if we're going to argue that maybe these were sock puppets or whatever the term is, then we have to accept that potentially the same could be true for a lot of the TRA 'die in a grease fire' type posts which get used as evidence of how abusive the trans lobby are.

Oh definitely, but there are plenty with pictures of verifiable named people holding baseball bats etc. And don't forget there's been physical violence from TRAs against realism believing women in real life.

What happened to KJK in NZ was terrifying.

The bots feed that behaviour though, undoubtedly. The problem is male violence. No doubt the bots are programmed by male violence loving humans too.

I think the gc movement is a pretty broad church, and there are women I don't particularly agree with. But I haven't seen any homophobia at all, so I'm a bit surprised at Doyle's accusation, and he's someone I generally like.

Yes, that's what I thought.

I mean the very notion of being 'gender critical' precludes homophobia.

But, I have noticed, that the term gets bandied about now in a way that has stripped it of its meaning. Hence quite a few women discarding it as a description.

I'm not on Twitter either, so I didn't see the exchange. Not having an account means I 'exceed my limit' in a bloody nanosecond these days.

Personal pronouns is an odd one. It's a bit of a lightning rod. Because it's the first potential demonstration of which camp you're in. Plus, like toilets, it's used all the time, so if that's what does for you, it's going to be fairly constant. And therefore, important.

Obviously, for many people like Andrew Doyle and Janice Turner, they are not in the TRA camp, at all, quite the opposite, but they would still use preferred pronouns.

So it depends how much store you set by pronouns as to the depth of your disagreement.

I think quite a few women have said they would use preferred pronouns at work, for instance. Personally, as I've said, I don't see how you can assess the motivation for that, when we are generally compelled to do it anyway.

Take away the compulsion, and then see if you still want to do it.

But it was different with Janice Turner. I couldn't work out what her motivation was. Being polite simply doesn't fly when you know it's a sexual fetish.

You either don't care enough and are happy to accommodate it, or you don't get the fetish.

And, the one thing that this site does, above any other, is inform people about AGP. We've got, what is it, 5000 or 6000 posts from women who are married to them.

It's just about the most revealing, enlightening and informative set of threads you can have.

This is the reason why I say it's a journey.

Personally, I just don't believe you can fully understand this issue and what drives it, until you understand what the transwidows have to say.

Especially, as, generally speaking, they all say the same thing.

Some of them undoubtedly are.

This.

Im sorry he recieved abuse, but im baffled why he thinks women should take responsibility for something they haven't done.

It's one of the rules of misogyny I think this one.

But the only way to avoid falling into the Hayton trap is not to engage.

No debate?

I interpreted that as not engaging on DH's terms rather than no engagement/debate, IYSWIM. I may be very wrong.

Language is vital, it is not ‘dictating’ what people say to point out theft of women’s language is a huge issue undermining women’s rights. If that is your response to someone objecting to you using ‘she’ to refer to a man then you are wilfully refusing to listen.

Andrew Doyle is great at the "anti woke" and freedom of speech stuff but he's never been much of a feminist. Titania McGrath is what he thinks of feminists. I actually think someone like Brendan O'Neill understands the issue for women better.

I've often considered that to be an interesting aspect of all of the strands of the resistance to the agenda, including, for example, those who object on religious grounds. It's very much a loose anti-insanity coalition rather than a doctrinaire and cohesive group. We all do have our differing angles and priorities and we're not going to find easy rapprochement will all strands of thought but I think that's OK and we shouldn't be fighting for ideological coherence - people with all kinds of objections are coming out against capture of public institutions, charities and other organisations by what is an obvious lunatic fringe.

I agree, but I'm sure I've seen it said before they are not necessarily TRA, just men who have found a new way to kick women. Many many times I've seen similar stuff said.
And then so damn many of the 'die in a grease fire' type posts are from blue tick, verifiable accounts.
Whereas what I've seen so far, on here only and a few screenshots, only one blue tick verifiable account.

Unless theres way more?

It's not even that I don't believe women made these comments, more that mostly lots of us are in the rainbow already. But bots, yeah I can believe bots.

It's very much a loose anti-insanity coalition

A perfect description.

Wel it's a right old shit show on twitter.

There's a group now of GC 'Ultras'. I think their position is no one shuold ever use a wrong pronoun?

A lot of people such as Julie Bindel, Sarah Phillimore, Bev Jackson etc are supporting AD as a good bloke who's been unfairly attacked.

There seesm to be loads of blocking going on both ways.

I'm sure this incident will pass but there does seem to be a rift occuring between the purists and the pragmatists.

I think there was always something of a rift going on there, to be honest.

But I genuinely think this will come out in the wash.

Unless it's now going to be a thing for some women, going forward, that they keep giving publicity to men with AGP.

I doubt it, but what with the Debbie Hayton PR Drive, and the Katy Jon Went being called esteemed, you never know.

As I believe these men are motivated by their sex drive, or their attention seeking, I doubt very much if that will last, if it does happen.

Cos that beachball sure ain't going to float itself.