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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why is Mumsnet so GC?

834 replies

ireallycantthinkofaname · 03/02/2024 00:18

Maybe an odd question but I've never come across another space, online or otherwise, where being GC is the norm. IRL I only ever discuss GC views openly with one family member, whose stance on it is similar to my own, though, so I'm not saying it's unwelcome.... Just curious how/why it's come about. Any thoughts or theories?

OP posts:
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Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/02/2024 20:17

I think that's quite a common claim.

Helleofabore · 18/02/2024 20:25

Waitingfordoggo · 18/02/2024 20:17

@Helleofabore I remember a TW, probably on MN, insisting that they hadn’t been socialised as male because they had of course always been female (a womanly essence had been present from birth but not discovered until later) and therefore the male socialisation hadn’t ‘worked’ on them because on some level, they always knew they weren’t really male.

Yes. I have seen that denial used myself. They cannot comprehend that the brain takes all this sexist behaviour from birth. The pattern is started then and continued.

What is hilarious is just how much has come through over time on posts and how obvious it is, yet it is denied over and over.

Mohur · 18/02/2024 20:43

It's very easy to spot men, on an online forum, whatever names they give themselves.

Emotionalsupportviper · 18/02/2024 20:47

They cannot comprehend that the brain takes all this sexist behaviour from birth. The pattern is started then and continued.

Nor that it isn't just how they feel "inside" - but how society reacts to them in their very visibly sexed bodies.

Society treats males and females differently based on their sex - society can't read the inner essence of the gendered soul (whatever the hell that might be), even if the male is wearing "female" clothing - he will still be treated (even if he is judged) as a male.

Helleofabore · 18/02/2024 20:52

Emotionalsupportviper · 18/02/2024 20:47

They cannot comprehend that the brain takes all this sexist behaviour from birth. The pattern is started then and continued.

Nor that it isn't just how they feel "inside" - but how society reacts to them in their very visibly sexed bodies.

Society treats males and females differently based on their sex - society can't read the inner essence of the gendered soul (whatever the hell that might be), even if the male is wearing "female" clothing - he will still be treated (even if he is judged) as a male.

absolutely.

When a person cannot accept that people can correctly identify their sex, they cannot accept that those who recognise their sex, or who know that the person is male, will react to that person as a male. The reality must be shit to acknowledge. All those past and future interactions that they simply will never know if the person is reacting to them as a 'woman' or as male. Particularly if they cannot recognise the fawning reaction.

nothingcomestonothing · 18/02/2024 21:17

Mohur · 18/02/2024 20:43

It's very easy to spot men, on an online forum, whatever names they give themselves.

It's very easy for women to spot men. I think Butters genuinely doesn't comprehend how easy it is for us to correctly sex Buttersself, just from theys posting style.

Helleofabore · 18/02/2024 21:24

nothingcomestonothing · 18/02/2024 21:17

It's very easy for women to spot men. I think Butters genuinely doesn't comprehend how easy it is for us to correctly sex Buttersself, just from theys posting style.

Apparently recognising and accurately describing male behaviour is anti-feminist! It is fucking hilarious.

LentilFaculties · 19/02/2024 06:58

nothingcomestonothing · 18/02/2024 21:17

It's very easy for women to spot men. I think Butters genuinely doesn't comprehend how easy it is for us to correctly sex Buttersself, just from theys posting style.

Yes and if men wish that women didn't need to talk amongst themselves about male behaviour and male bodies, the most effective thing men could do would be to stop dominating, stop abusing and stop raping.

Transwomen have something women don't have: experience of being a man. I wish they'd use that privilege to influence men to treat women better. Rather than leveraging same old structural and physical inequalities against the very group they purport to identify with.

Boiledbeetle · 19/02/2024 07:03

Crankywiddershins · 18/02/2024 18:29

You promised you'd keep quiet about our "arrangement". I resign! And I'm taking my sock folding device with me.

Wakes up to creased sheets and socks everywhere...

Fine I'll double your pay to 20p an hour and increase your holidays to a day every other year.

Now can you come and help me find a pair of socks!

Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeease.

Crankywiddershins · 19/02/2024 07:10

Boiledbeetle · 19/02/2024 07:03

Wakes up to creased sheets and socks everywhere...

Fine I'll double your pay to 20p an hour and increase your holidays to a day every other year.

Now can you come and help me find a pair of socks!

Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeease.

Yes m'lady, right away, sorry sorry sorry. I've brought your favourite socks. I'll go back to the cellar now.

ArabellaScott · 19/02/2024 07:11

Hear, hear, Lentil.

Women know who men are because we bloody well need to. One sex class does the violence and raping. One sex class bears the reproductive burden. One sex class is larger, and stronger. Millennia of evolution of two sex classes with a marked power differential.

No amount of hair, makeup, exogenous hormones,or plastic surgery will change that.

Boiledbeetle · 19/02/2024 07:16

Crankywiddershins · 19/02/2024 07:10

Yes m'lady, right away, sorry sorry sorry. I've brought your favourite socks. I'll go back to the cellar now.

Valentines Day Hug GIF by Teletubbies

Ooh wonderful. And I'll let you spend today in the kitchen rather than the cellar.

Boiledbeetle · 19/02/2024 07:21

ArabellaScott · 19/02/2024 07:11

Hear, hear, Lentil.

Women know who men are because we bloody well need to. One sex class does the violence and raping. One sex class bears the reproductive burden. One sex class is larger, and stronger. Millennia of evolution of two sex classes with a marked power differential.

No amount of hair, makeup, exogenous hormones,or plastic surgery will change that.

I think this in essence is the problem. The male of the species just can't get their head around the fact that for women knowing who is a man is such an important feature of our existence that women in the main are able to pick up the smallest of clues that a male is in our vicinity, without even being aware of how we do it.

It's like when you have your back to a door but instantly know without turning if it's a man or a woman who has just walked in.

BezMills · 19/02/2024 07:32

If a Man doesn't want to get immediately sussed as a Man, obviously the first thing they have to do is dial down the Manning a bit.

Helleofabore · 19/02/2024 07:52
dobby GIF

.

Boiledbeetle · 19/02/2024 07:57

😂

RedToothBrush · 19/02/2024 08:45

Why is there such a fixation on the ways that the polypeptide chains in our cells are arranged? It's so self-defeating.

My 'fixation' is about a workable law, based on identifiable points and robust clear legal definitions that works to prevent harm and balance the needs of ALL.

You can't do that around 'feelings in your head' and sexist perceptions of the aesthetics of what makes a woman.

Why are women abused and harmed? Why are they discriminated against? Why were laws to protect them set up in the first place? What is it that makes womens healthcare a Cinderella service? Why is it that women are significantly more likely to be the victims of domestic abuse? What is it that means women are significantly more likely to be the victim of sexual abuse? Are there more or less women in prison than men? And are the types of offences similar or massively different? Why was women's sport invented? Why were women's toilets promoted in the UK and then by charities in the developing world? What children are/were most likely to be the victims of infanticide? Why are women treated differently in Afghanistan? There's so many areas where there is an impact from sex. From data collection, to research and product development. I could carry on.

Just because you don't like your sex and don't want to admit to your sex, your sex still exists.

You are totally oblivious to all of this. You dismiss it as irrelevant or unimportant. That's arrogant and absolutely tone deaf to a point it's grossly offensive.

All these issues haven't changed because some bloke came along, decided he wasn't a man anymore and that he should get access to womens spaces and demand he is treated 'like a woman'.

The very concept of a 'cis woman' with privilege over men - especially considering the pattern is that the majority didn't and still don't transition until much later in life (ironically the opposite to what's going on with women and girls) so have those years of privilege being a boy and a man, is so deeply offensive I don't know where to start. It drips with sexism. Everything about telling a woman that hey we are redefining what a woman is (but notably there isn't the same attention paid to destroying the word man) drips with sexism.

It is all about power and control. It always has been.

The idea that sex is about the cellure arrangement of your body is massively offensive too. Women's lives ARE defines in multiple ways by their reproductive ability (including it's lack of) and our sexual functions. Women understand this because we live it.

By saying it's just a bunch of cells, dismisses the lived experience of billions of women around the world.

Just how unbelievably arrogant is that?

Sex matters.

Feminism is about understanding that but saying it shouldn't mean we are disadvantaged and harmed because of it.

You are actively saying it doesn't matter.

I say this a lot, but your comment illustrates it particularly well: if you can't see sex, you can't see sexism. But that doesn't stop sexism and the harms that come with it. Indeed it just enables it.

I am 'fixated' with ensuring this doesn't happen and that we don't regress to a place women have been and been restricted by and don't want to return to.

That's not to say that's there's a pile of work to do on helping men and women who don't confirm to gender - but that problem is different and shouldn't be confused.

Clearly identifying sex in law as about biology has importance and offers protection.

I fully expect this post to be brushed aside like every single other one we've made directed at you as being some however transphobic and irrelevant. Because that's just it. We don't matter. We are all supposed to accept what you say and defer to you because your needs and desires are more important.

Except they are. And rights are about balancing issues. And unfortunately sex doesn't go away because you want it to. Cos material reality.

BezMills · 19/02/2024 08:52

^ Brava ^

RedToothBrush · 19/02/2024 08:53

ButterflyHatched · 18/02/2024 19:26

What could be more aligned with feminist principles than telling someone they have a magic sex essence because of their writing style?

Who can spell:

M-A-L-E E-N-T-I-T-L-E-M-E-N-T?

Saying sex doesn't matter, it's just a bunch of cells, is exactly what a man who doesn't understand the oppression and abuse of women and lived experience, would say.

It's hardly magic essence and writing style.

It's a big blaming red flag and neon flashing lights saying 'im privileged and probably male'. Done repeatedly, you can tell pretty damn quick from the pattern whether the latter is true.

DialSquare · 19/02/2024 09:04

Great post Red

RedToothBrush · 19/02/2024 09:16

Waitingfordoggo · 18/02/2024 17:44

Dressing as a female and calling yourself a female doing stuff doesn't mean that anyone was ' hammering bricks out of the wall of gender'.

Quite. If BH had worn dresses and make up and behaved in ‘ladylike’ ways, but still acknowledged being male, that would have been properly progressive. Doing ‘lady stuff’ and then insisting that it makes you an actual woman is regressive as fuck.

Being ladylike?

What does that mean?

I find this one a bit of a paradox.

It's on the one hand supposed to be about being polite, respectful, having a significant amount of empathy for others, listening more than speaking, caring and being deferential to the wants and needs of others

Then you get a man come along, say they have all the 'lady essence' whilst demanding their rights are being trampled on and they demand more respect, shout about how they aren't listened to enough and aren't getting want they want and show a total lack of empathy. And the gender critical women here aren't allowed to demand respect and the maintenance of their rights because they don't like it and it's mean and transphobic.

It's gender stereotypes that don't serve the interests of women and somehow these are aren't applicable to the males who come along claiming they've been oppressed and want to impose gender stereotypes on us even more.

It's bonkers. Bollocks to that.

RethinkingLife · 19/02/2024 09:48

Helleofabore · 18/02/2024 17:30

Yeah. Imagine if a male person started a campaign about truly broadening the bandwidth to make all males, however they presented, welcomed into the male single sex spaces.

That would be remarkable.

Agreed.

TW, NB, or whomever, might gather together and use male facilities in public spaces, sports grounds, bars or whatever.

Take back their space and broaden the bandwidth for what it means to be a man. Alex and BH might even consider joining forces to do that.

Broaden the bandwidth. Build that coalition.

Meet Grrl Alex, the gender non conforming trans woman from Wales

Meet the marvellous Alex, from Cardiff. Part of the My Genderation 'Patchwork' series, with All About Trans.www.mygenderation.comwww.allaboutrans.org.ukwww.f...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lj4V-Nme86U

theilltemperedclavecinist · 19/02/2024 09:48

RedToothBrush · 19/02/2024 08:53

Who can spell:

M-A-L-E E-N-T-I-T-L-E-M-E-N-T?

Saying sex doesn't matter, it's just a bunch of cells, is exactly what a man who doesn't understand the oppression and abuse of women and lived experience, would say.

It's hardly magic essence and writing style.

It's a big blaming red flag and neon flashing lights saying 'im privileged and probably male'. Done repeatedly, you can tell pretty damn quick from the pattern whether the latter is true.

Like Marie-Antoinette with the cake. Or someone who 'doesn't see skin colour' . Their words reveal their privilege.

Of course, some women 'don't see sex'. The lucky, unimaginative ones.

LentilFaculties · 19/02/2024 09:49

RedToothBrush · 19/02/2024 08:45

Why is there such a fixation on the ways that the polypeptide chains in our cells are arranged? It's so self-defeating.

My 'fixation' is about a workable law, based on identifiable points and robust clear legal definitions that works to prevent harm and balance the needs of ALL.

You can't do that around 'feelings in your head' and sexist perceptions of the aesthetics of what makes a woman.

Why are women abused and harmed? Why are they discriminated against? Why were laws to protect them set up in the first place? What is it that makes womens healthcare a Cinderella service? Why is it that women are significantly more likely to be the victims of domestic abuse? What is it that means women are significantly more likely to be the victim of sexual abuse? Are there more or less women in prison than men? And are the types of offences similar or massively different? Why was women's sport invented? Why were women's toilets promoted in the UK and then by charities in the developing world? What children are/were most likely to be the victims of infanticide? Why are women treated differently in Afghanistan? There's so many areas where there is an impact from sex. From data collection, to research and product development. I could carry on.

Just because you don't like your sex and don't want to admit to your sex, your sex still exists.

You are totally oblivious to all of this. You dismiss it as irrelevant or unimportant. That's arrogant and absolutely tone deaf to a point it's grossly offensive.

All these issues haven't changed because some bloke came along, decided he wasn't a man anymore and that he should get access to womens spaces and demand he is treated 'like a woman'.

The very concept of a 'cis woman' with privilege over men - especially considering the pattern is that the majority didn't and still don't transition until much later in life (ironically the opposite to what's going on with women and girls) so have those years of privilege being a boy and a man, is so deeply offensive I don't know where to start. It drips with sexism. Everything about telling a woman that hey we are redefining what a woman is (but notably there isn't the same attention paid to destroying the word man) drips with sexism.

It is all about power and control. It always has been.

The idea that sex is about the cellure arrangement of your body is massively offensive too. Women's lives ARE defines in multiple ways by their reproductive ability (including it's lack of) and our sexual functions. Women understand this because we live it.

By saying it's just a bunch of cells, dismisses the lived experience of billions of women around the world.

Just how unbelievably arrogant is that?

Sex matters.

Feminism is about understanding that but saying it shouldn't mean we are disadvantaged and harmed because of it.

You are actively saying it doesn't matter.

I say this a lot, but your comment illustrates it particularly well: if you can't see sex, you can't see sexism. But that doesn't stop sexism and the harms that come with it. Indeed it just enables it.

I am 'fixated' with ensuring this doesn't happen and that we don't regress to a place women have been and been restricted by and don't want to return to.

That's not to say that's there's a pile of work to do on helping men and women who don't confirm to gender - but that problem is different and shouldn't be confused.

Clearly identifying sex in law as about biology has importance and offers protection.

I fully expect this post to be brushed aside like every single other one we've made directed at you as being some however transphobic and irrelevant. Because that's just it. We don't matter. We are all supposed to accept what you say and defer to you because your needs and desires are more important.

Except they are. And rights are about balancing issues. And unfortunately sex doesn't go away because you want it to. Cos material reality.

I'd like everyone who comes to this board to read and consider these points before scolding and misrepresenting feminists.

The stupid thing is, if it was just about being allowed to look a certain way and do whatever hobbies, a truly gender non conforming male would be happy with what feminists were fighting for.

The only thing men stand to lose if ever we influence society enough, is their disproportionate amount of power and control.

BezMills · 19/02/2024 10:22

From the youtube above "the idea that to be accepted as a woman I'd have to surrender my body to medical science to make it conformist, it's sort of offensive you know"
re: his impressive beard "people can read that I've got a male history but they can also see that I present as female (by putting on a skirt, one supposes), so I guess I sort of deconstruct gender"

I think I would like Alex, he seems sound. he's a man in a dress, and I can dig that, why not. I don't accept him as a woman, hope that wouldn't piss him off too much (if so, too bad).

I wouldn't say he's really trying to expand the idea of Manning, rather the opposite in fact. He's decided he's a woman, and since he has a beard and a cockenballs, he's telling us 'woman can have a gurt beard and a cockenballs and and that's ok'.