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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why is Mumsnet so GC?

834 replies

ireallycantthinkofaname · 03/02/2024 00:18

Maybe an odd question but I've never come across another space, online or otherwise, where being GC is the norm. IRL I only ever discuss GC views openly with one family member, whose stance on it is similar to my own, though, so I'm not saying it's unwelcome.... Just curious how/why it's come about. Any thoughts or theories?

OP posts:
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70
ButterflyHatched · 19/02/2024 11:11

ArabellaScott · 18/02/2024 20:03

No, it's a process that one is likely to experience if raised as a boy, influenced by sexist stereotypes. Childhood experiences can have a huge impact on our behaviour.

So behaviour is learned and mutable?

ButterflyHatched · 19/02/2024 11:46

RedToothBrush · 19/02/2024 09:16

Being ladylike?

What does that mean?

I find this one a bit of a paradox.

It's on the one hand supposed to be about being polite, respectful, having a significant amount of empathy for others, listening more than speaking, caring and being deferential to the wants and needs of others

Then you get a man come along, say they have all the 'lady essence' whilst demanding their rights are being trampled on and they demand more respect, shout about how they aren't listened to enough and aren't getting want they want and show a total lack of empathy. And the gender critical women here aren't allowed to demand respect and the maintenance of their rights because they don't like it and it's mean and transphobic.

It's gender stereotypes that don't serve the interests of women and somehow these are aren't applicable to the males who come along claiming they've been oppressed and want to impose gender stereotypes on us even more.

It's bonkers. Bollocks to that.

It is a ridiculous paradox by design and it's deeply disheartening to see you and other posters on this board indulge it.

Trans women have to live with being beaten over the head with gender stereotypes regardless of whether they conform to them or not. We are either manipulative and passively conforming to gender stereotypes or we are abrasive and entitled if we stand up for ourselves and bite back with identical language to that used by other posters. There's no substance to it - any more than there is to the same misogynistic tactics used against women worldwide to silence and chastise us.

I already see this happen in the workplace all the fucking time to both myself and my colleagues in meetings and email threads and it is so damn tedious. To see it perpetuated by regulars on a feminism board of all places is exhausting.

There are so many sticks to beat trans women over the head with already - why resort to the same tired misogynistic catch-22 that plagues us all?

ArabellaScott · 19/02/2024 11:46

RedToothBrush · 19/02/2024 08:45

Why is there such a fixation on the ways that the polypeptide chains in our cells are arranged? It's so self-defeating.

My 'fixation' is about a workable law, based on identifiable points and robust clear legal definitions that works to prevent harm and balance the needs of ALL.

You can't do that around 'feelings in your head' and sexist perceptions of the aesthetics of what makes a woman.

Why are women abused and harmed? Why are they discriminated against? Why were laws to protect them set up in the first place? What is it that makes womens healthcare a Cinderella service? Why is it that women are significantly more likely to be the victims of domestic abuse? What is it that means women are significantly more likely to be the victim of sexual abuse? Are there more or less women in prison than men? And are the types of offences similar or massively different? Why was women's sport invented? Why were women's toilets promoted in the UK and then by charities in the developing world? What children are/were most likely to be the victims of infanticide? Why are women treated differently in Afghanistan? There's so many areas where there is an impact from sex. From data collection, to research and product development. I could carry on.

Just because you don't like your sex and don't want to admit to your sex, your sex still exists.

You are totally oblivious to all of this. You dismiss it as irrelevant or unimportant. That's arrogant and absolutely tone deaf to a point it's grossly offensive.

All these issues haven't changed because some bloke came along, decided he wasn't a man anymore and that he should get access to womens spaces and demand he is treated 'like a woman'.

The very concept of a 'cis woman' with privilege over men - especially considering the pattern is that the majority didn't and still don't transition until much later in life (ironically the opposite to what's going on with women and girls) so have those years of privilege being a boy and a man, is so deeply offensive I don't know where to start. It drips with sexism. Everything about telling a woman that hey we are redefining what a woman is (but notably there isn't the same attention paid to destroying the word man) drips with sexism.

It is all about power and control. It always has been.

The idea that sex is about the cellure arrangement of your body is massively offensive too. Women's lives ARE defines in multiple ways by their reproductive ability (including it's lack of) and our sexual functions. Women understand this because we live it.

By saying it's just a bunch of cells, dismisses the lived experience of billions of women around the world.

Just how unbelievably arrogant is that?

Sex matters.

Feminism is about understanding that but saying it shouldn't mean we are disadvantaged and harmed because of it.

You are actively saying it doesn't matter.

I say this a lot, but your comment illustrates it particularly well: if you can't see sex, you can't see sexism. But that doesn't stop sexism and the harms that come with it. Indeed it just enables it.

I am 'fixated' with ensuring this doesn't happen and that we don't regress to a place women have been and been restricted by and don't want to return to.

That's not to say that's there's a pile of work to do on helping men and women who don't confirm to gender - but that problem is different and shouldn't be confused.

Clearly identifying sex in law as about biology has importance and offers protection.

I fully expect this post to be brushed aside like every single other one we've made directed at you as being some however transphobic and irrelevant. Because that's just it. We don't matter. We are all supposed to accept what you say and defer to you because your needs and desires are more important.

Except they are. And rights are about balancing issues. And unfortunately sex doesn't go away because you want it to. Cos material reality.

Thanks, Red.

ArabellaScott · 19/02/2024 11:49

Feminism is for women. We have put up with so much, due to our sex, to then have a male come and berate us and lecture us that we don't understand womanhood or feminism?

No, thank you.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/02/2024 11:51

ArabellaScott · 19/02/2024 11:49

Feminism is for women. We have put up with so much, due to our sex, to then have a male come and berate us and lecture us that we don't understand womanhood or feminism?

No, thank you.

It's part of the attraction for them.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/02/2024 11:51

Trans women have to live with being beaten over the head with gender stereotypes regardless of whether they conform to them or not.

I don't recognise "gender", only sex.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 19/02/2024 11:52

ButterflyHatched · 19/02/2024 11:46

It is a ridiculous paradox by design and it's deeply disheartening to see you and other posters on this board indulge it.

Trans women have to live with being beaten over the head with gender stereotypes regardless of whether they conform to them or not. We are either manipulative and passively conforming to gender stereotypes or we are abrasive and entitled if we stand up for ourselves and bite back with identical language to that used by other posters. There's no substance to it - any more than there is to the same misogynistic tactics used against women worldwide to silence and chastise us.

I already see this happen in the workplace all the fucking time to both myself and my colleagues in meetings and email threads and it is so damn tedious. To see it perpetuated by regulars on a feminism board of all places is exhausting.

There are so many sticks to beat trans women over the head with already - why resort to the same tired misogynistic catch-22 that plagues us all?

Wooosh

IcakethereforeIam · 19/02/2024 11:55

Tw can do whatever they want with gender stereotypes; conform to them, don't conform. I don't care. They are still and always will be men and they stay out of women only spaces.

Boiledbeetle · 19/02/2024 12:04

A man is a man and can never be a woman. Past that I don't give a shiny shit how men decide to live their lives. They can accept reality or Deny it, I don't give a fuck.

But however they decide to lives their male lives they can keep the fuck out of women's single sex spaces and sports and prisons and everything else that involves women and just women.

Men - Go have your existential crisis in the men toilets.

RedToothBrush · 19/02/2024 12:05

ButterflyHatched · 19/02/2024 11:46

It is a ridiculous paradox by design and it's deeply disheartening to see you and other posters on this board indulge it.

Trans women have to live with being beaten over the head with gender stereotypes regardless of whether they conform to them or not. We are either manipulative and passively conforming to gender stereotypes or we are abrasive and entitled if we stand up for ourselves and bite back with identical language to that used by other posters. There's no substance to it - any more than there is to the same misogynistic tactics used against women worldwide to silence and chastise us.

I already see this happen in the workplace all the fucking time to both myself and my colleagues in meetings and email threads and it is so damn tedious. To see it perpetuated by regulars on a feminism board of all places is exhausting.

There are so many sticks to beat trans women over the head with already - why resort to the same tired misogynistic catch-22 that plagues us all?

No it's not a paradox.

The problem is you saying that being a woman is a feeling in your head.

It's not.

I would respect you saying you have body dysphoria and not liking gender stereotypes and acting accordingly.

But you are not saying that.

You are saying you ARE a woman and that sex doesn't matter.

Thats why I struggle.

Well if sex didn't matter, why feel the need to try to change it?

The problem is you are trying to run away from yourself in psychological terms and are trying to force everyone else to indulge it and defer to it.

The answer is no.

Whilst I am willing to give concession to the idea that someone is distressed, I am not prepared to go along with the power and control over women to appease this. It just creates a whole other pile of problems for women - which makes don't have to deal with because it doesn't affect them.

You still aren't grasping the impact ON WOMEN. All you see is how it affects YOU.

It's tone deaf.

The solution must balance the needs and safety of women as well as anyone trans. And that MUST include the recognition of the important of sex and the harmful effects of gender stereotypes rather than trying to replace sex with gender otherwise it's not a solution it's just further abuse and harm of women.

I note that you quoted THAT OTHER post and completely ignored the other one. Funny that.

That also sums up the issue well. The failure to even acknowledge how it is affecting women. It's the constant DEMANDS placed on women to be the ones to facilitate the problem without acknowledging the problems women have which don't just disappear and are in fact exacerbated by capitulating to these demands.

No not doing it.
Nor will I be emotionally blackmailed.

I firmly believe you can only be at peace with life when you accept material reality. That doesn't mean liking it. It means acknowledging it and saying it can be shit but understanding you ultimately can't change certain fundamentals in life. Sex is one of those. You can change other things but sex isn't one of them.

RedToothBrush · 19/02/2024 12:08

Ultimately women and trans people need DIFFERENT protections and frameworks in law to protect both. Because their needs and issues are DIFFERENT. Because they are DIFFERENT.

Trying to pretend this isn't the case is nuts and fucked up.

Because a male is never a woman. And vice versa. Because sex matters.

ArabellaScott · 19/02/2024 12:10

Aye. Women are not support humans.

Helleofabore · 19/02/2024 12:11

ButterflyHatched · 19/02/2024 11:46

It is a ridiculous paradox by design and it's deeply disheartening to see you and other posters on this board indulge it.

Trans women have to live with being beaten over the head with gender stereotypes regardless of whether they conform to them or not. We are either manipulative and passively conforming to gender stereotypes or we are abrasive and entitled if we stand up for ourselves and bite back with identical language to that used by other posters. There's no substance to it - any more than there is to the same misogynistic tactics used against women worldwide to silence and chastise us.

I already see this happen in the workplace all the fucking time to both myself and my colleagues in meetings and email threads and it is so damn tedious. To see it perpetuated by regulars on a feminism board of all places is exhausting.

There are so many sticks to beat trans women over the head with already - why resort to the same tired misogynistic catch-22 that plagues us all?

The only way to be a woman or a girl is to be a female person navigating the world with their female sexed body. Not one modified to resemble a female sexed body. But an actual female sexed body.

A male person who has grown up as a male person, knowing they are a male person, cannot just deny their male entitlement shows because they want to believe that. If people are telling them their male privilege, misogyny and entitlement is as clear as bell, maybe consider that they have a point. And why we have found it so obvious.

Merrymouse · 19/02/2024 12:15

ButterflyHatched · 19/02/2024 11:46

It is a ridiculous paradox by design and it's deeply disheartening to see you and other posters on this board indulge it.

Trans women have to live with being beaten over the head with gender stereotypes regardless of whether they conform to them or not. We are either manipulative and passively conforming to gender stereotypes or we are abrasive and entitled if we stand up for ourselves and bite back with identical language to that used by other posters. There's no substance to it - any more than there is to the same misogynistic tactics used against women worldwide to silence and chastise us.

I already see this happen in the workplace all the fucking time to both myself and my colleagues in meetings and email threads and it is so damn tedious. To see it perpetuated by regulars on a feminism board of all places is exhausting.

There are so many sticks to beat trans women over the head with already - why resort to the same tired misogynistic catch-22 that plagues us all?

Did you actually read the post?

The conflict is about sex based rights. Red explained in great detail why they are relevant, but you don’t seem able to engage with that.

Helleofabore · 19/02/2024 12:17

"The problem is you are trying to run away from yourself in psychological terms and are trying to force everyone else to indulge it and defer to it."

This is it. Loud and clear.

Merrymouse · 19/02/2024 12:21

RedToothBrush · 19/02/2024 12:08

Ultimately women and trans people need DIFFERENT protections and frameworks in law to protect both. Because their needs and issues are DIFFERENT. Because they are DIFFERENT.

Trying to pretend this isn't the case is nuts and fucked up.

Because a male is never a woman. And vice versa. Because sex matters.

Exactly, and if I am female, I need sex specific rights regardless of my identity.

Identifying as male won’t save a woman from an unwanted pregnancy or enable access to education in Afghanistan. I have more opportunities than my grandmother and my mother because I am protected by a rights framework and have access to resources that I just wouldn’t need if I were male.

IcakethereforeIam · 19/02/2024 12:29

If a man retards his puberty, has all the hormones, all the surgeries, voice training, grows his hair, trowels on the makeup, spends a fortune with a personal shopper in the ladies' department at John Lewis, he is still a man and stays out of women's spaces.

RedToothBrush · 19/02/2024 12:32

There are scholarships in education for women who do sport or in specific fields where women are severely under represented such as science (particularly engineering and physics) and computer programming.

These are now being taken by transwomen.

That means women don't get those educational opportunities. And that has a significant effect on society as a whole.

Those scholarships were designed because it was recognised that women weren't getting those opportunities.

So why are they now being taken away?

Wouldn't it be better to have a number of trans scholarships that recognise the specific disadvantages for that group?

Or is there more to it?

Beowulfa · 19/02/2024 12:33

The more I read posts from transwomen the more GC I become.

I think a major eye-opener from me was reading one (with an anime name, not butterfly hatched) a few years back insisting that female puberty was all about developing boobs and round bottoms.

EasternStandard · 19/02/2024 12:36

Beowulfa · 19/02/2024 12:33

The more I read posts from transwomen the more GC I become.

I think a major eye-opener from me was reading one (with an anime name, not butterfly hatched) a few years back insisting that female puberty was all about developing boobs and round bottoms.

Same. I think it’s the combination of dismissing women and flights of fantasy that discard facts and safeguarding

Helleofabore · 19/02/2024 12:55

Beowulfa · 19/02/2024 12:33

The more I read posts from transwomen the more GC I become.

I think a major eye-opener from me was reading one (with an anime name, not butterfly hatched) a few years back insisting that female puberty was all about developing boobs and round bottoms.

Oh my! I remember that claim!

That poster visits us occasionally under different names. They have a distinctive style and got to references.

Emotionalsupportviper · 19/02/2024 13:42

Boiledbeetle · 19/02/2024 07:03

Wakes up to creased sheets and socks everywhere...

Fine I'll double your pay to 20p an hour and increase your holidays to a day every other year.

Now can you come and help me find a pair of socks!

Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeease.

You're feeding @Crankywiddershins too many raw fish heads, Beetle

The high protein content is making her uppity. Keep her on crusts and bacon rinds, that's my advice.

Emotionalsupportviper · 19/02/2024 13:48

RedToothBrush · 19/02/2024 08:45

Why is there such a fixation on the ways that the polypeptide chains in our cells are arranged? It's so self-defeating.

My 'fixation' is about a workable law, based on identifiable points and robust clear legal definitions that works to prevent harm and balance the needs of ALL.

You can't do that around 'feelings in your head' and sexist perceptions of the aesthetics of what makes a woman.

Why are women abused and harmed? Why are they discriminated against? Why were laws to protect them set up in the first place? What is it that makes womens healthcare a Cinderella service? Why is it that women are significantly more likely to be the victims of domestic abuse? What is it that means women are significantly more likely to be the victim of sexual abuse? Are there more or less women in prison than men? And are the types of offences similar or massively different? Why was women's sport invented? Why were women's toilets promoted in the UK and then by charities in the developing world? What children are/were most likely to be the victims of infanticide? Why are women treated differently in Afghanistan? There's so many areas where there is an impact from sex. From data collection, to research and product development. I could carry on.

Just because you don't like your sex and don't want to admit to your sex, your sex still exists.

You are totally oblivious to all of this. You dismiss it as irrelevant or unimportant. That's arrogant and absolutely tone deaf to a point it's grossly offensive.

All these issues haven't changed because some bloke came along, decided he wasn't a man anymore and that he should get access to womens spaces and demand he is treated 'like a woman'.

The very concept of a 'cis woman' with privilege over men - especially considering the pattern is that the majority didn't and still don't transition until much later in life (ironically the opposite to what's going on with women and girls) so have those years of privilege being a boy and a man, is so deeply offensive I don't know where to start. It drips with sexism. Everything about telling a woman that hey we are redefining what a woman is (but notably there isn't the same attention paid to destroying the word man) drips with sexism.

It is all about power and control. It always has been.

The idea that sex is about the cellure arrangement of your body is massively offensive too. Women's lives ARE defines in multiple ways by their reproductive ability (including it's lack of) and our sexual functions. Women understand this because we live it.

By saying it's just a bunch of cells, dismisses the lived experience of billions of women around the world.

Just how unbelievably arrogant is that?

Sex matters.

Feminism is about understanding that but saying it shouldn't mean we are disadvantaged and harmed because of it.

You are actively saying it doesn't matter.

I say this a lot, but your comment illustrates it particularly well: if you can't see sex, you can't see sexism. But that doesn't stop sexism and the harms that come with it. Indeed it just enables it.

I am 'fixated' with ensuring this doesn't happen and that we don't regress to a place women have been and been restricted by and don't want to return to.

That's not to say that's there's a pile of work to do on helping men and women who don't confirm to gender - but that problem is different and shouldn't be confused.

Clearly identifying sex in law as about biology has importance and offers protection.

I fully expect this post to be brushed aside like every single other one we've made directed at you as being some however transphobic and irrelevant. Because that's just it. We don't matter. We are all supposed to accept what you say and defer to you because your needs and desires are more important.

Except they are. And rights are about balancing issues. And unfortunately sex doesn't go away because you want it to. Cos material reality.

standing ovation applause GIF

Say it, sistah!

Shout it from the rooftops!

Boiledbeetle · 19/02/2024 13:49

Emotionalsupportviper · 19/02/2024 13:42

You're feeding @Crankywiddershins too many raw fish heads, Beetle

The high protein content is making her uppity. Keep her on crusts and bacon rinds, that's my advice.

You had to wait until id written the shopping list didn't you

Why is Mumsnet so GC?
JanesLittleGirl · 19/02/2024 13:57

Boiledbeetle · 19/02/2024 13:49

You had to wait until id written the shopping list didn't you

I thought that you had given up tripe for Lent.

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