Year 8 trans child - in secret

[WoollyMammoth1]

The recent news article about the trans child at a primary school made me think of sharing a similar story at my DD school, big difference being is that's a secondary school.
DD is in year 8, there's a child in her year that identifies as a girl but is a boy. No one at school, besides staff knows, DD doesn't know either as whilst I feel bad withholding the information, I don't want her to keep this secret at school.

The child has a sibling at the school, who calls him by his girl name. They change in the disabled changing room and use the disabled toilet.

I found out through social media, the parent came up as a possible contact, their profile is open and there were many pictures of her children when younger making it very clear. Absolutely no doubt.

When I first found out, I researched and found there is little I can do. The child's rights seem to trump all others.

DD and the child started building a friendship last year, but this went sour. Which I am glad for considering the circumstances.

My issue here is the deceit and secrecy. Non of the year group know the child is a boy which is such an obvious safeguarding risk, and once they find out they'll feel betrayed. Any friendships are based on a lie. And I feel like I am condoning the situation by not saying anything, esp to DD.

The child lives further from school then most other kids, likely to try and ensure there were no other children at the school that might know them.

It feels wrong to keep things quiet, esp for my daughters, and other girls in her year's sake, so hoping that someone here may have some good ideas in where to go from here.

(Long term Mumsnetter, name changed for this post)

I need wealth affirming treatment...

I don't mean to be rude, but I don't think that's a very mature attitude to such a serious medical intervention with such severe long term and permanent effects.

My friend was in her 20s and asked for her tubes to be tied (sterilised) after the birth of her second child with her husband.

The medics/dr/establishment refused. She was too young. What if she wanted more kids later on? What if her husband died young and she wanted children with her new husband? What if she had to undergo menopause early? What if, what if, what if - No.

It's not right but if you're not considered capable of making these decisions as an adult and mother, how the hell can children be considered capable????

Cersei in Game of Thrones constantly refers to the limitations of her gender role as woman. How life would be easier if she was a man and how she would be respected, not disparaged. So does Brienne and Arya. All want to be women of action, not passive decorations.

Women are usually unhappy with their gender role, as it is boring, restrictive and often leads to oppression. I've never been a "girly girl" and I don't want to be but it's the gender role stereotypes that I hate, not being a woman.

There’s a lie at the heart of all this, which is framing it as Female Privilege to be born with a body that develops breasts and menstruates.

Despite the fact that if
you ask most women you will get horror stories of the changes that happen once puberty kicks in. If you talk to prepubertal girls they are often worried about the changes to come.

I can’t back this up with research papers, so feel free to dismiss it all as anacdata.

If boys/men who wish to be women want to believe girls are thrilled about puberty, breast and periods then they need to accept this is not really rooted in actual experiences. Girls often take time to adjust to womanhood. The ones that view it positively are surely not the majority?

So this myth builds that if you’re unhappy with body changes you must be trans, it can’t be seen as a normal - or at least common- experience for girls (I can’t speak for boys. I have never had conversations with men about how puberty affected them.) And any woman who says she went through a traumatic time as a child but is not trans identifying in adulthood must be lying because she’s a transphobic bigot.

Now the degree of discomfort will vary, but I doubt many girls are overjoyed - not until society changes from its deep sexism at any rate.

Also, fwiw, I think some people will never move out of this and the feeling of distress will persist into adulthood, but that doesn’t mean they are, ever will be, or even should be the opposite sex.

Come, come!

This was a wumman -she can't possibly make such a decision ! And any male doctor knows that if you lose a child, then any random child afterwards will totally fit that gap and you will forget the previous one - and also if you lose your husband and are fortunate enough to re-marry and get someone prepared to take on you and your swarm of children, then the first thing that you will think of is having a few more to add to the mix.

(Yes- I had similar arguments . . . .)

@Emotionalsupportviper

It's not the best argument in that it is wrong to assume women can't make this decision for themselves. It's more that if that kind of caution is applied to a mother of two who wants a sterilisation, why is it not the same for transgender children? Why would the answer not be - you need to wait until you're older? Or even, you need to come to terms with your body - present how you like but society is organised on sex, not gender.

This has drifted a long way from the original post. Women on this board were often involved in campaigning against Section 28. It was abolished more than 21 years ago. Schools now discourage bullying of same sex attracted children and any persistent offender can be excluded.

Children will still try to bully others but claiming that all children questioning their identity will be bullied breeds the climate of fear that makes such children more, not less, vulnerable. Insisting others must treat you as special and that it is "hatred" not to use pronouns or to "misgender" you is likely to make you unpopular. Adults, for their own reasons, are trying to force their faith on non consenting children. Learning to tolerate other beliefs is not the same as agreeing they can be forced on you.

No-one can know if this child would be bullied or not. We do know that other children are being lied to and that there is a safeguarding risk as these children grow older if they share accommodation. We also know that by going along with a social transition it becomes more difficult for the child to become reconciled to their body and more likely to damage their health with lifelong medication and surgery. All the children in this school are being harmed by adults who should know better. If the child wishes to transition as an adult, when they are old enough to appreciate the risks, .that is their choice but all these children need safeguarding.

Trying to prevent children from exploring their gender identity at school is just re-treading the same road that led to Section 28 all over again. It was already horrible the first time and it didn't work - we do not need to subject another generation to it.

I find the 'insisting others treat you as special' logic very odd. If you find that so aggravating, then why aren't you trying to normalise it so it isn't 'special' and nobody gives a shit anymore? If you are so concerned about children transitioning then won't that solve the supposed problem anyway?

What do you mean by 'exploring their gender identity'? Why do you think children should have a gender identity? What is the purpose of a gender identity?

What do you mean by 'trying to normalise it so it isn't 'special' and nobody gives a shit anymore'? We certainly don't want to normalise damaging medication and surgery on healthy bodies, so we can't just ignore what is happening.

What do you mean Butterfly? When you say explore gender identity and normalise?

All children explore who they are as they grow up and whilst I don't have a gender identity I can see in today's climate and language that is something children will look to explore. But past trying out different hair styles and clothes what is involved/how does this exploration occur?I

And what are you looking to normalise?

Normalise children being in single sex spaces intended for the opposite sex? definitely no.

Normalise Children having unnecessary surgery? Certainly Not

Normalise Children taking life limiting harmful drugs? God no

Normalise Children wearing whatever they want as long as appropriate for the occasion? Let them have at it!

Normalise that there is no right or wrong way to be a boy or a girl? Yes!

No child should be subject to gaslighting that their growing body may be wrong and that social transitioning, drugs and surgery are the solution. That's nothing like Section 28 - it's fundamental safeguarding.
Children need protecting from age inappropriate issues that they're not emotionally or intellectually competent to navigate, especially when the long term outcomes can lead to life long infertility & compromised physical and mental health.

Butterfly like many women I have spent my life refusing to accept sexual stereotypes that belong back in the 1950s. I am not going to accept normalising sexual stereotypes now. Why dont you join us in fighting for children's right not to comply with outdated stereotypes, not to be bullied if they choose not to accept stereotypes and not to be told there is anything wrong with their bodies?

In the news today 4 bodies arrested on suspicion of rape and the youngest one is 12. There is a safeguarding risk if children of different sexes are sharing accommodation. The parents of children at the school have a right to know if their female child invites a boy to stay overnight - and anyone who knows and does not tell the parent is failed to safeguard the girl.

Trying to prevent children from exploring their gender identity at school is just re-treading the same road that led to Section 28 all over again.

In these cases, it's really not. For starters, children who declare a gender identity in public that secretly differs from their physical sex are not exploring anything. They are asserting an identity (often prematurely), not exploring what it means. Secrecy shuts down honest exploration.

And Section 28 was about teachers not being able to tell children the truth. If anything this kind of secrecy is Section 28 all over again.

I find the 'insisting others treat you as special' logic very odd. If you find that so aggravating, then why aren't you trying to normalise it so it isn't 'special' and nobody gives a shit anymore? If you are so concerned about children transitioning then won't that solve the supposed problem anyway?

So what does this look like in practice?

Children with gender identity issues wearing opposite sex clothes, using typically opposite sex names, using opposite sex pronouns?

Tbh if that’s all it was I could probably get behind that.

Treating everyone fairly, with respect and decency? Yes, I would like that.

Turning single sex changing spaces, residential sleeping anccomodation and single sex toilets into mixed sex for the comfort of a handful of children? No. Not at all.

Boys on girls sports teams? No, no thanks.

Expecting children to accept some boys want to be girls and vice versa and hard line on all bullying issues. Yes.

Teaching boys that a boy who feels different to them and presents different to them has nothing to fear by changing clothes or sharing rooms on residentials with children of the same sex? In the name of Be Kind yes please!

what do you mean @ButterflyHatched

It really is way past time to end this spurious comparison between gay and trans. But, once again, ...

If a man sincerely says "I feel I am sexually attracted to men" he is sexually attracted to men. Why? Because to feel attracted is to be attracted.

If a man sincerely says "I feel I am a woman" he is not a woman. Why? Because mammals cannot change sex.

There couldn't be a bigger difference: one claim (being gay) is necessarily true, the other (changed sex) necessarily false.

So this "Section 28 all over again" stuff is nonsense. Balony. Poppycock. Balderdash ...

[As for "explore gender identity" ... Perhaps such exploration could begin with a search for a sense of 'gender', non-conterminous with 'sex', in which someone might have or be a gender? Hmm?]

[As for "explore gender identity" ... Perhaps such exploration could begin with a search for a sense of 'gender', non-conterminous with 'sex', in which someone might have or be a gender? Hmm?]

Good luck with getting an answer to that. I've been here for about 7 years trying to get an explanation of what it means to 'have a gender'.

'Having a gender', is apparently, really important to some people. But when you ask them what this means, they can't answer. According to them, it's all about 'feelings', and although they can't explain what these feelings feel like to all the adults posting on here, very young children are aware of these feelings and know what their gender is.

These indescribable feelings (which very young children fully understand, but which can't be explained to adults who don't have these feelings), are also universal in nature. Every child who feels they have a 'male gender' or a 'female gender' is feeling the same as every other child who feels this gender, even though these genders can't be defined or described. They must be, otherwise it would make no sense to attach the words 'male' or 'female' to these 'genders'.

It's an interesting fantasy world. Or it would be if it didn't have such serious real life consequences.

Indeed. A fantasy, and one with an interesting modal status. It's not simply that the fantasy is not real. It couldn't be real, given contradictory requirements on the sense of its basic notion, that of having or being a 'gender'.

This explains the lack of suggestions as to what the explanation of this term might be, of course. Coherent explanation is impossible given these requirements on its sense.

Such a fantasy of gender, in short, is not simply non-actual: it is impossible.

(I am interested that this doesn't seem to stop people believing it. What is it to believe something impossible? (People do all the time, of course: they believe they have squared the circle, whatever. Although, as L. Wittgenstein once said about a similar case, "Perhaps [they] believe that [they] believe it!"))

Explore their ‘gender identity’? Really? My children won’t be exploring their ‘gender identity’ because, like me, they’ve been brought up to understand gender stereotypes and to know that they can be a girl and like Maths, be a boy and have long hair and like cooking. They’re certainly not going to define themselves by outdated, regressive stereotypes.

It fucks me right off that we’re talking about this in 2024. Far better that we undo the damage of the last few years and emphasise to children that they can be feminine boys and masculine girls and that’s perfectly ok.

Quite. I say that as a 'tomboy' in my late 50s. Never been 'girly' but I'm a woman.

It doesn't seem to matter how many times it is said; someone always seems to hear 'feels a sense of gendered incongruence with the physical configuration of their body' and think that means 'is a tomboy'.

These two things are not mutually exclusive!

A person may feel a sense of gendered incongruence while expressing themself anywhere within or indeed outside the culturally constructed aesthetic/behavioural scale that has 'masculine' and 'feminine' poles.

This fundamental misunderstanding appears to be at the root of so much of the confusion and furore surrounding how our society is trying to get to grips with the complexities of gender. I at least partially blame past misfires at translating the subject into the social sphere for general consumption by people who don't personally experience it.

at translating the subject into the social sphere for general consumption by people who don't personally experience it.

Sounds very secret society.

"by people who don't personally experience it."

Yeah. Women and girls get pretty tired of explaining that being a woman or a girl isn't for anyone else except those who were born female and who then 'personally experience' growing up female. We understand how tiresome it is for people to not understand what we say and just continue to impose their own beliefs on female people. It has been happening to us for millennia. And it continues now, always by male people though.

at translating the subject into the social sphere for general consumption by people who don't personally experience it.

Well I'm afraid you're going to need to do a better job of translating if you want the rest of us to go along with it.