Year 8 trans child - in secret

[WoollyMammoth1]

The recent news article about the trans child at a primary school made me think of sharing a similar story at my DD school, big difference being is that's a secondary school.
DD is in year 8, there's a child in her year that identifies as a girl but is a boy. No one at school, besides staff knows, DD doesn't know either as whilst I feel bad withholding the information, I don't want her to keep this secret at school.

The child has a sibling at the school, who calls him by his girl name. They change in the disabled changing room and use the disabled toilet.

I found out through social media, the parent came up as a possible contact, their profile is open and there were many pictures of her children when younger making it very clear. Absolutely no doubt.

When I first found out, I researched and found there is little I can do. The child's rights seem to trump all others.

DD and the child started building a friendship last year, but this went sour. Which I am glad for considering the circumstances.

My issue here is the deceit and secrecy. Non of the year group know the child is a boy which is such an obvious safeguarding risk, and once they find out they'll feel betrayed. Any friendships are based on a lie. And I feel like I am condoning the situation by not saying anything, esp to DD.

The child lives further from school then most other kids, likely to try and ensure there were no other children at the school that might know them.

It feels wrong to keep things quiet, esp for my daughters, and other girls in her year's sake, so hoping that someone here may have some good ideas in where to go from here.

(Long term Mumsnetter, name changed for this post)

Then no one needs to take your assertion seriously, do they.

Well, no, it’s up to them. Not too sure why you think I would care about it. How people think is up to them.

Don't be ridiculous. How on earth can DSDs (physical genetic conditions) and having problems with your gender identity (mental health disorder) be treated the same? This is absolutely not one diagnosis.

So why did you throw it into the mix?

You probably don't remember how the subject was handled in schools at the time - why would you? I can't imagine it was even on your radar - it certainly wasn't on most people's.

There are a lot of assumptions about how all this worked historically. It was generally treated as an extension of Section 28 when it came up because the general population still only considered trans issues as 'homosexuality with extra steps' at the time, if it ever came up at all.

Trying to explain that I was bisexual and also transsexual (as we called it at the time) and that these were two separate things was not an easy task under that legislation and the climate of fear was palpable.

I may be reading you wrong, but it really looks like talk of 'assigned sex' is just an attempt to muddy the waters (as those without serious argument are wont to do).

(Forgive me, @Lemonlemonlemonapple, if I have you wrong and you're actually trying to be serious here.)

But revenons à nos moutons: OP's daughter is at a school with a boy who 'identifies' as a girl. There's no suggestion anyone made a mistake when this boy was born and took him for a girl. (A scenario your talk of 'assigned sex' implies may be the case; such a case would anyway be vanishingly rare. (And no, statistics about disorders of development of various sorts, made-up or not, are not called for here; that would just be more mud.))

No, the issue - as it almost invariably will be, and certainly is here - is simple enough. A boy is unhappy about his sex and, as is fashionable, says he is actually a girl.

What is/what should be our attitude to this?

As follows: This boy (like the poster I mentioned in my earlier piece) is making a mistake, possibly about what sex he is (bizarre though that may be, to be sure!), certainly about what follows from what we are calling (faute de mieux given no response to questions about the sense of gender I raised) gender incongruence: feeling unhappy at one's sex.

My suggestion (and that of others) was, and remains, that such a child needs, and should be offered, assistance and support to see his mistake and deal with it. Not, not that he should be encouraged to persist in his error by those around him pretending he is somehow a different sex and possibly undergoing medical interventions to simulate that.

[Note that none of this engages with ideas of 'gender' in a sense non-conterminous with 'sex'. We're still owed an explanation of a sense of 'gender', non-conterminous with sex, in which a person can have or be a gender. Any offers? (Actually, of course, I suspect there simply isn't one.)]

@negeme and once we have retraced a hundred years of modern-ish medicine's research into trans people from base principles and discovered, once again, that conversion therapy still doesn't work and that people still persist even when you brainwash, torture and threaten them with a lifetime of misery...

How do we deal with it then?

Gender incongruence is just a medical diagnosis which can be applied when people seek help from the medical profession because of unhappiness with assigned sex (you have to use assigned sex, because that’s just what the medical diagnosis is. The diagnostic category is designed to cover everyone with unhappiness with assigned sex whether they have variations in development or not).

It’s not really possible to give an answer for a particular case, because there isn’t one reason why someone may be struggling with gender incongruence (unhappiness with assigned sex), or one solution. As a starting point (in my opinion) you need counselling and therapy, and to understand all the family dynamics. Every situation is different. No one here knows what the actual situation is in this particular case. You can’t assume someone who’s struggling with these issues believes they’re in the wrong body, or similar (I’m assuming that’s what you mean by ‘mistake’. That might not be what they think at all). You would need to understand exactly what the issues are. No-one here has the information to be able to comment. The whole thread seems to be based on assumptions from photos someone found on social media. It’s certainly not enough for me to be able to give any views.

"My suggestion (and that of others) was, and remains, that such a child needs, and should be offered, assistance and support to see his mistake and deal with it. Not, notthat he should be encouraged to persist in his error by those around him pretending he is somehow a different sex and possibly undergoing medical interventions to simulate that".

Well said @negeme. Somehow we have to ensure that children realise that their bodies are not flawed and that drugs and surgery won't fix them. Children like this 12 year old are casualties of this experiment that's been carried out on them. Schools must be places of truth, rationality and above all, safe places where they can mature. Making life altering decisions must wait until they reach maturity.

Because the whole thing seems to be based on assumptions from photos, rather than any direct knowledge, you don’t even know if this child is struggling with assigned sex, or is trans, or anything.

Well, for a long while there really wasn't a problem. People who were very unhappy with their sex could pursue various avenues, including medical, cosmetic surgery of various kinds, as well as adopting particular stereotypical clothing and so on so as to simulate a change of sex. Although all concerned (as well as the unconcerned) knew no-one actually could change sex, this knowledge was swept under the carpet. And why not? No harm done, legal fictions included. No harm, no foul, as our American friends say.

But then ... for various reasons, harms began to be perpetrated. Children began to be affected, harmed. Men started using the 'under-carpet-sweeping' for various nefarious purposes. Women got alarmed, started to fight back. It became clear allowing men who were unhappy with their sex unbridled access to aspects of life women had fought for for themselves against patriarchal oppression could be severely deleterious to women. People lost their jobs for telling the truth. And so on. You know all this recent history.

Of course among those badly affected by all this were those whose fictional change of sex was no longer so easily swept under the carpet given reaction to these harms. That, indeed, is sad. But, well, the harms overwhelmed the tacit acceptance of fictions of sex-change. Tant pis, as our French friends say.

And now, you ask, how to deal with it? Sadly it seems we will be unable to go back to the status quo ante. Things have gone too far for that. No more sweeping under carpets, unhappily. So what, then?

My own thought is that we should try to be clear about what is the case, with one another, particularly women, parents and children, but also with you and others who are so unhappy with your sex. It does seem talk of 'gender identity' and cognates is such an incoherent basis for any systematic belief it cannot be used to ground anything approaching a good life as a human being. Accepting diversity - praising its acceptance, indeed - should not be thought grounds for accepting - and teaching our children - untruths.

Of course I may be wrong about all this. Perhaps there is a decently coherent basis for gender identity and all the rest as grounding what looks simply an impossibility: change of sex. So, again, maybe you can help. Is there a sense of 'gender' or 'gender identity', non-conterminous with 'sex', for which one could be said to have or be a gender?

As part of 'dealing with it', I would like to convince you and others the answer is 'no'. As part of that, I offer you the chance to try to confute me. (You have to engage first, to do that, you see.)

I think you do yourself no good - and possibly harm - by miscategorising logic/truth/semantic discussion ... argument ... as 'conversion therapy', with all its pejorative connotations. Maybe try to enter into discussion with the thought that - just possibly - you may be mistaken? Hmm?

I don't know. But forcing everyone else to pretend they can't tell sex is a pretty rubbish solution. It isn't comfortable or honest for anyone.

What, instead of that, can you suggest?

Bullying should never be permitted and teachers should crack down on it when they spot any sign of it. However some children do make life hard for themselves by being obnoxious to their peers. I had to tell one parent at a social activity I was involved with that the reason other children would not choose to play with her daughter was because the child was rude to them. I couldnt say directly your child is a spoilt rude little brat and your parenting needs to change but that was the truth. We didnt let the others bully her and wouldnt allow her to be left out of everything but we couldnt make them like her.

It is butterfly's behaviour here that suggests claiming to be a different sex was not their only problem.

I was unhappy with my "assigned sex" at puberty, because I didn't want periods, or to wear an itchy bra. I'm also distinctly unhappy now I'm facing menopause. Is unhappiness with shitty reality really a medical condition?

Incredible.

"Incredible", you say, @ButterflyHatched. To you, very possibly. Rabbie Burns might help here:

“O, wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as others see us!
It wad frae monie a blunder free us,
An' foolish notion.”

-- Something we all might well consider?

You should be allowed gender affirming treatment if you want it, whoever you are.

Even if you have a physical or mental condition which may be adversely affected? Even if the person is a known sexual offender who may use this to gain access to vulnerable people? Even if you are too young to understand the consequences?

No safeguarding at all. No psychological assessment.

Want rather than need…

@ButterflyHatched please can you explain exactly how gender affirming treatment will stop a woman going through the menopause?

How do you medically affirm a feeling in your head?

And why do you think this treatment, with all its side effects and possible complications, is better than leaving a healthy body alone and managing the psychological issues?

But since gender is not something anyone can have, or be, what on earth do you mean by 'gender affirming treatment'?

What might be being 'affirmed'? One's unhappiness at one's sex?

... "I'm unhappy with my sex." --"Oh, good, I'm really pleased for you. Here, have some free GnRH analogues."

Is that the sort of thing you advocate? For children?

Pretty much everyone hates puberty, don't they? So where would that leave us all?

You should be allowed gender affirming treatment if you want it, whoever you are.
Would you say everyone should be allowed to have experimental cancer treatment if they want it, even if they don't have cancer, even if emerging evidence shows it will harm them not help them?

Fucking hell.

I don't really know what else to say.

What if your sex is female, you feel happy with that (your gender I guess) but your outward presentation isn’t that feminine?

Should we accept treatment as a norm or as feminists should we continue to argue it’s ok to be yourself? (This question is rhetorical for the most of us here)