Thank you: Debbie Hayton in the Mail

[Needmoresleep]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13011839/I-went-agonising-operation-thought-woman-finally-make-happy-devastating-revelation.html

I think I try and see it as part of shifting the Overton window

I agree this is extremely useful. Isla bryson did this very effectively - do you remember when Nicola Sturgeon had that interview, when asked if he's a man or a woman, she said he's a rapist! So he pushed the overton window in that they could start saying not all TWAW.

The difference is, no one is starting MN threads "thank you, Isla Bryson"

I'm not going to thank Debbie Hayton for acting out his AGP in front of kids at school. Even if it does help shine a light on his own depravity.

Nb I'm not saying DH is as bad as Isla Bryson, before anyone shoots me down. It's an analogy.

Agree afternoonlife.

To be clear, I did say I was sorry for him, but not because he’s an AGP or a presumed narcissist, porn-addled or whatever. But because I’m sorry for anyone (to varying degrees) who has damaged their body or health for the false promises of transition.

We live in a frankly insane period of history when the idea that you can change sex is being pushed by governments, the judiciary, healthcare, schools and many other institutions, and that to do this sex change you need to have surgery and/or take hormones that ultimately just damage healthy bodies. No one is convincingly or functionally getting the body of the opposite sex. And yet a wide range of people, for a variety of reasons, are being drawn into this false promise that they can, and it’s doing them harm. That’s true whether they are a morally good person or not.

Being trans is an income generator for Hayton. Hayton has benefited from (and been a part of instigating) the changes that have had such a negative impact on women and girls. Being positioned as the "reasonable" trans generates income for the family in terms of writing gigs and TV appearances. Coming up with fresh takes, such as hinting at regret, keeps people interested. This reminds me of internet content creators who go from vegan to carnivore and back again. It is all about the clicks.

Do you really think, that if those people knew of the possibility that he was getting sexually aroused from making his pupils called him Miss, they would feel positive?

AGP in Daily Mail puff piece doesn’t reveal the full revolting details of AGP shocker. Of course he doesn’t. But as afternoonoflife say, it’s putting AGP in the spotlight and means now we can continue to talk about it - and feminists and those who care about safeguarding will have to point out that he is continuing to use his students, colleagues etc to get a thrill, as well as featuring in articles like this, and having photoshoots for them etc. And to bring these facts into the debate. Which gets easier to do when a TW with a platform says “It’s actually a fetish and I’m not a woman”. However much you dislike that TW or that he has that platform.

Again, the fact that I think him putting some facts out there is useful, doesn’t mean I cluelessly think he’s telling the whole truth.

But in the context of how successfully “TWAW” has been sold to those with power and policy influence, it’s important that we have the bases on which to challenge that. This is one of them.

You're not getting the realities.

Deliberately.

Pshaw. Why the hell would I deliberately not get it?

If he writes interesting, intelligent, well-balanced and honest articles about the experience of transition - why shouldn’t he get paid for them? Why shouldn’t he publicise his perspective - it may well help people.

Are you so preoccupied with money that that’s a problem?

You're not getting the realities.

Deliberately.

"Pshaw. Why the hell would I deliberately not get it?"

No, I mean he is deliberately not giving them to you. Not you're deliberately not getting them.

An entire double spread, in anticipation of his book, and he's made all the below the line comments support him.

Don't you think that's an extraordinary feat?

Being trans is an income generator for Hayton. Hayton has benefited from (and been a part of instigating) the changes that have had such a negative impact on women and girls. Being positioned as the "reasonable" trans generates income for the family in terms of writing gigs and TV appearances. Coming up with fresh takes, such as hinting at regret, keeps people interested. This reminds me of internet content creators who go from vegan to carnivore and back again. It is all about the clicks.

Again, this may be true but it doesn’t mean he isn’t playing a part in dismantling a hugely harmful quasi-religious ideology with his revelations. Whatever his actual intentions.

And I think there are a lot of women, parents and others out there who will rapidly begin to see him as less “reasonable” the more they learn about AGP.

I'm not going to thank Debbie Hayton for acting out his AGP in front of kids at school.

That’s rather misunderstanding the complexity of his motivation, which he clearly wasn’t aware of at the time. And it ignores the number of teachers who get off sexually on teaching teen girls or boys - there were a couple of hardcore offenders at my school.

Agreed. It’s not like he’s getting rich on this, and I don’t care if he does - if he shines a light on the different motivation for trans - he’s doing the world a big favour.

That’s rather misunderstanding the complexity of his motivation
AGP really isn't complex.

Apologies Datun I did misunderstand you there.

Yes the puff piece is designed to get plaudits for him, otherwise he wouldn’t do it. Yes it doesn’t describe in detail how he’s using children for gratification. It wouldn’t would it.

But it lays the groundwork for AGP to be more widely discussed and understood, especially as a major motivation for being “trans” among a certain demographic. And I hope ultimately that does lead to a full understanding of the details.

That’s rather misunderstanding the complexity of his motivation, which he clearly wasn’t aware of at the time

Except he claims it started in 'early childhood'.

Well, anyway. We can continue to press on the mechanisms of AGP. What it is, how it operates, and the delusion that goes along with it.

I agree that the general public may well see things differently if rather than a 'most marginalised, brave and stunning' lens, they are considering that many of the men 'transitioning' are doing so because they are driven by a paraphilia.

All human nature and personality is complex, and it took him a long time to come to understand his underlying motivations.

And?

Many people have behaviours, preoccupations, moods, compulsive habits that started in childhood - they still don’t understand them.

Well he understood it well enough to write the guidance into the NASUWT policies, get his pupils to call him Miss, and use the ladies loos.

I’m not sure I can work out from what DH says how much he understands about his AGP or when it became more clear to him. Though I have seen reposted on Twitter and on here various Reddit, TikTok etc posts that suggest men with AGP have massively failed to understand it and been very confused about how transitioning would supposedly help them, and devastated when it didn’t, particularly the lost of sexual function.

More generally, I think a LOT of men have an extremely poor understanding of their own sexism and misogyny and very successfully convince themselves they’re modern and enlightened when they aren’t at all. Trans ideology rides on a fake bandwagon of being “progressive” which probably appeals even more to men like this - lefty liberals who are very drawn to a progressive image of themselves, it allows them to totally deny the deep misogyny inherent in both AGP and being a “TW”.

it took him a long time to come to understand his underlying motivations.

My arse.

Well he understood it well enough to write the guidance into the NASUWT policies, get his pupils to call him Miss, and use the ladies loos.

Again, not saying I know DH’s motivations, but you could also easily arrive at this set of conclusions by thinking that TW are somehow magically real women - as the ideology encourages everyone to think. Many female “allies” who don’t have AGP also think like this.

How do you explain the bit that says male part time cross dressers should be allowed to use the Ladies toilets at the staff party?

but you could also easily arrive at this set of conclusions by thinking that TW are somehow magically real women

Good Lord. Debbie Hayton is a science teacher. Debbie Hayton will know that getting turned on by watching sissy porn doesn't make you a real woman.

I presume it could be either. Deluded “progressive” TWAW thinking using the widest possible trans umbrella. Or full-on AGP-fuelled misogyny. Or somewhere in between. Or just trying to get a reaction.

Good Lord. Debbie Hayton is a science teacher. Debbie Hayton will know that getting turned on by watching sissy porn doesn't make you a real woman.

Tell that to Alice Roberts, and plenty of other female scientists, including professors, who are not AGPs but spout this shite. I think it’s entirely possible that someone like DH, maybe in the past, could be in denial about his agp and convince himself of this instead. Fuck knows why anyone believes it but they do, or try to make themselves believe it. it’s one of the mysteries of gender ideology but it’s definitely a thing.

AGAIN, not defending him, but I agree with mirabai that people are complex and capable of absolutely vast self-delusion, self-misunderstanding and compartmentalisation.

He didn’t write his motivations into the guidance. And his perspective seems to have evolved since then.

Again, does it say anywhere that he has rescinded that advice? Because countless women have asked him to.