Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
Thread gallery
6
ANewCreation · 26/01/2024 09:31

I love this photo of the gold winning mixed relay 4x100m team at the 2020 Tokyo Olympics. All brilliant swimmers, all at the top of their game and all maximising peak performance.

Two very distinctive body shapes.

Those who support Lia Thomas (who, in contrast to pretty much every other elite athlete on the planet, is supposedly trying to inhibit peak performance rather than maximise it) presumably think it'd be OK in this event to just swap out one (or two) of the body types on the right for additional types on the left (as long as they were still wearing the correct swimsuit) and that would still be fair competition...

Lia Thomas.....again. Yes, really in 2024 😠
Needmoresleep · 26/01/2024 09:51

OvaHere · 26/01/2024 09:19

The problem is that it doesn't impact men's sport in the slightest and some people only care about men's sport.

The Olympics are big business. Men's sport will be bigger business than women's. The men's 100m sprint will be bigger business than the hammer throw but everything contributes. Broadcasters will be buying the package and will be interested in average audiences over the whole thing. Swimming televises reasonably well and is something that richer countries are good at. The Italians or the French will switch on if one of their women is in contention for a medal.

Lia Thomas in the women's finals might attract a certain level of curiosity first time round, but audiences will soon cool to watching mediocre men compete against women. Who cares whether they feel like a women. Women's sport is about the fastest, strongest, most determined women competing against each other.

Which is why we keep getting this fudge, where elite sport is women only and grassroots sport is "inclusive". It is about protecting the business. Of course people know that spots on good grass roots teams are seriously competitive as are places on regional and national pathways, and that is boys are blocking places future elite girls may not make it through. They don't care about the girls who is sitting on the bench or not making the final. They don't care about the girl forced to share a changing room with a larger stronger male. But they do care that they can sell their Olympic TV packages.

ToastOfBristol · 26/01/2024 10:02

@Datun Perfectly put 👏

SamW98 · 26/01/2024 10:07

Datun · 25/01/2024 23:13

She also told ESPN: “The biggest misconception, I think, is the reason I transitioned. People will say, ‘Oh, she just transitioned so she would have an advantage, so she could win’. I transitioned to be happy, to be true to myself.”

God, the fucking arrogance. No one gives a shiny shit why you 'transitioned'. Just stop cheating.

Christ, what kind of mindset is it that says if you only knew how much I wanted this, you'd let me walk all over you.

In that locker room, we turned around and there’s a 6ft 4in biological man dropping his pants and watching us undress, and we were exposed to male genitalia.

I suppose that's not a goal, either??

Arse.

Edited

Absolutely 👏👏

Every time these people speak about how unfair it is all I hear is ‘me me me me me me me me me me me’

All that matters in their self absorbed delusional world is their feelings and bollox to everyone else.

sanluca · 26/01/2024 10:21

Do you what really galls me about the fact this is in swimming?

When girls get their first period, they have to learn how to handle tampons. Ever tried to explain to your 11 year old daughter how tampons work? At bloody five in the morning because practice is at 5:30 and you need to get a move on?

Or girls who get their periods during the championships that are whole weekends and have to find a way to change the tampons as you are swimming for ten hours and tampons have to be changed? Which means you have to take off your carbon race costume, change it, shower, and then put another carbon race costume on, which on average takes 15-20 minutes? Because you can't put a wet carbon race costume back on. So you need to own two at 300 pounds a piece.
And before anyone asks, if you need to pee, you pee through your costume and shower afterwards.

Boys don't have these issues. This is why so many girls stop racing once puberty hits. And then this dude just rocks up, never had to deal with these issues and beats the girls that have struggled through all of it. Just angers me so much

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 26/01/2024 10:22

I don't think the intent is necessary to get thomas a place on the team, it's to confuse the definition of women or female.

Any definition of woman that excludes men will be challenged, and boundaries constantly pushed, even if that doesnt result in a man on the team. As pp have noted, the world isnt going to see a thomas in a cossie as a woman, but few are going to see the definition of women in the swimming rules until its set legally.

Rather than having female meaning the type of gametes produced, it'll be definined around puberty, or testosterone levels, or diagnosis of gender and different depending on situation. Women = testosterone in sport, puberty in changing rooms, grc in marriage.

If 'woman' doesnt mean one single thing, eventuality 'woman' will mean anything and no one is sure when a man is a woman and when he isnt.

Then we will be fighting to define women = gametes in select situations only. But the confusion will still exist and likely result in men as women everywhere in practice if not legally.

Brefugee · 26/01/2024 10:26

IsabelleSE19 · 25/01/2024 23:33

Sean Ingle has been pretty good on this - not sure if it's having any wider effect on the G but we can only hope! They have a TW reporter as well so that might make for a bit of an internal conflict...

meh. They have lots of women reporters too. That doesn't stop the likes of Zoe Williams and Owen Jones shitting all over women constantly.

Datun · 26/01/2024 10:27

thepressoutside · 26/01/2024 02:28

I'm sure this has been discussed before, amd may be considered a very stupid suggestion, but why not keep the male-female competitions and then pilot test having an "Open gender" competition so that anyone who wants to compete, and trans-identifying peoples, can in the "Open" lanes?

And maybe at the elite levels, like world championships or Olympics, if transpeople want to compete with the gender they currently identify as, then make it a rule that they had to have started transitioning at least 5 years before competition. This would allow them to train for 5 years at less elite levels as the gender they identify with while getting hormones etc.

I know the entire issue is more complicated than this, but that feels like it would solve temporarily all concerns...

These men wanting to compete in women's sports are doing it for two reasons. Firstly to win and secondly to have validation of their self perception that they're not men.

You're not getting first class male athletes suddenly transitioning, forgoing all the kudos and money involved in male sport to switch to competing as women.

Whilst they can still win big in the men's, they will.

Women's sport is not a consolation prize. Nor is it a means for men to make more money, or validate themselves.

i'm sure you don't mean to come across like this thepressoutside, because, no doubt, you're just trying to be kind, but it is remarkable how many people want to shoehorn men into women's sport, and will scrabble around for different ways of doing it, just because the men want it.

Can we do it this way, what about that way, what if we hobble them with these drugs, what if we disadvantage them with this means.

Quite apart from the fact that there is no way to disadvantage men sufficiently, women's sport isn't a bloody service for men to utilise because, for whatever reason, they can't shine in their own category.

Women want to watch women win. Women who have worked their bloody anrses off to get where they are, at the peak of their fitness, not taken drugs to reduce their advantage!

It's an utter mockery of what sport is for.

And it stays relative right down to grassroots level.

This attempt by Lia Thomas is the last howling rage of a thwarted man.

What's depressing is how many people just can't bear the thought of a man being thwarted, they want to fix it.

And they simply expect women to be the means.

YireosDodeAver · 26/01/2024 10:30

midgetastic · 25/01/2024 22:56

In the guardian also I think

Not read

Thr guardian article is good. Very carefully worded to never use a pronoun about Thomas except in quotes when quoting Thomas's own words. Makes it clear that the science is on the side that Thomas isn't on.

Emotionalsupportviper · 26/01/2024 11:09

thepressoutside · 26/01/2024 02:28

I'm sure this has been discussed before, amd may be considered a very stupid suggestion, but why not keep the male-female competitions and then pilot test having an "Open gender" competition so that anyone who wants to compete, and trans-identifying peoples, can in the "Open" lanes?

And maybe at the elite levels, like world championships or Olympics, if transpeople want to compete with the gender they currently identify as, then make it a rule that they had to have started transitioning at least 5 years before competition. This would allow them to train for 5 years at less elite levels as the gender they identify with while getting hormones etc.

I know the entire issue is more complicated than this, but that feels like it would solve temporarily all concerns...

It's been tried - they didn't get any entrants for the "open" category.

I can't imagine why . . . .

https://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1141404/aquatics-shelves-open-category-berlin

Swimming World Cup open category debut fails to attract single entrant

World Aquatics has shelved plans to debut an open category designed to accommodate transgender athletes at its Swimming World Cup in Germany's capital...

https://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1141404/aquatics-shelves-open-category-berlin

Emotionalsupportviper · 26/01/2024 11:10

pantsalot · 26/01/2024 02:41

Doesn't this lead to them saying kids should be transitioning younger before puberty?

Yep - they'll be pushing for in utero transition next.

Emotionalsupportviper · 26/01/2024 11:12

Sorry - didn't realise you'd posted this and have done the same.

Too late to edit, so apology.

Emotionalsupportviper · 26/01/2024 11:18

SidewaysOtter · 26/01/2024 05:41

The issues here are three fold.

  1. Open categories in addition to male and female categories have been trialled. On at least one occasion it was cancelled as no-one entered. On other occasions, there’s been mutterings that they needed to be separated further into “Originally male” and “Originally female” classes because - surprise, surprise - the winners were all those born male. One answer is two categories: open and female, but transwomen competitors (that is to say, those born male) don’t like that. They want access to women’s spaces becuase that’s what validates them.

  2. Transitioning a certain period before competition, reducing testosterone etc does not alter the fact that a body which has gone through puberty as male has physical advantages over one which has gone through puberty as female. The only possible resolution is to insist on full transition before puberty, which would be ethically and morally dubious, to say the least.

  3. Elite-only restrictions completely ignores grassroots competition, which is where all elite competitors originate and where many compete for fun at amateur level. If girls are pushed out of competition (and sport generally) at this level - and let’s not forget that female participation in sport is sometimes hard to achieve anyway - then that’s not fair. It’s also losing those who would go on to compete at elite level because they drop out due to disappointment with not doing as well as they should/not getting places on teams/not wanting to share changing rooms with biological males/not wanting to risk injury from male bodied players in contact sports. Why should they lose out?

A central tenet of sport is fairness. The male bodied competing against females in sports where men have an advantage (a few sports have men and women competing equally, notably equestrianism, but it’s rare) just simply is not fair. And it matters more than “kindness” or “inclusivity”.

Excellent post.

Plus - isn't it amazing that "transitioning" doesn't just not reduce male puberty advantage, but seems to actually increase male entitlement.

We need a study on this . . . there's a nice little PhD in there for someone, I'm sure.

Froodwithatowel · 26/01/2024 11:37

This attempt by Lia Thomas is the last howling rage of a thwarted man. What's depressing is how many people just can't bear the thought of a man being thwarted, they want to fix it.

This ^^ Well said.

It is so tempting to get lost in the 'but what about if we just fuck women over a little bit, surely women can suck up a bit so that a sad special man can feel better'. Just THOSE men. Just under THESE special circumstances. Just so long as it's only a FEW women harmed.

This is rooted in a belief that men matter and women are therapy resources for them as opposed to equal humans.

And Thomas says it: 'you can't believe half way'. This is what the be kind well intentioned people haven't yet clocked. The whole soothing 'yes, yes, you're definitely absolutely a woman look at me using your pronouns' usually comes from a belief that you're engaged in a kind game with someone in good faith, where you both know it's a game and the other person won't push it too far.

And you then get rage and anger when you reach a boundary and have to say well no, the pretense can't go here because now it's harming others. It's the exact same rage in the articles written by male people with TQ+ identities about how lesbian women are very kind to them, will listen attentively, give lots of positive attention to men identifying as lesbians - but then won't get their knickers off and DTD.

You think it's kindness. They think it's cock teasing.

It is much kinder to say no from the start.

Glittertwins · 26/01/2024 13:05

sanluca · 26/01/2024 10:21

Do you what really galls me about the fact this is in swimming?

When girls get their first period, they have to learn how to handle tampons. Ever tried to explain to your 11 year old daughter how tampons work? At bloody five in the morning because practice is at 5:30 and you need to get a move on?

Or girls who get their periods during the championships that are whole weekends and have to find a way to change the tampons as you are swimming for ten hours and tampons have to be changed? Which means you have to take off your carbon race costume, change it, shower, and then put another carbon race costume on, which on average takes 15-20 minutes? Because you can't put a wet carbon race costume back on. So you need to own two at 300 pounds a piece.
And before anyone asks, if you need to pee, you pee through your costume and shower afterwards.

Boys don't have these issues. This is why so many girls stop racing once puberty hits. And then this dude just rocks up, never had to deal with these issues and beats the girls that have struggled through all of it. Just angers me so much

Not only the expense of the race suits and having to change san pro but also the fact that cycles really do affect how we can race and train. Liar Thomas has also never had to contend with that.

nepeta · 26/01/2024 18:57

@Datun

These men wanting to compete in women's sports are doing it for two reasons. Firstly to win and secondly to have validation of their self perception that they're not men.

Indeed. What I have never been able to understand is how those two goals can be kept up in the air at the same time in that juggling, because if they win it is very likely that it is because they have the advantage caused by going through male puberty.

So if they win they get to enjoy sticking their finger up at all the women, but they don't get that validation they desire. The reverse situation applies if they lose.

As an aside, I can't personally grasp why anyone actually identifying WITH women would do this, knowing full well that sports has nothing to do with some abstract feeling which some people have but much to do with the sexed bodies.

BewaretheIckabog · 27/01/2024 19:09

Whilst I admire Helen Joyce, Maya Forstater, Rosie Driffield, JK Rowling, Allison Bailey and too many more brave women to mention, I do think there is a certain irony that it is men like Lia Thomas who will bring this whole house of cards tumbling down.

MrGHardy · 27/01/2024 19:24

That should be irrelevant for CAS.

MrGHardy · 27/01/2024 19:27

I read a (small) thread on this on Reddit, and bar a few extremists, even other trans people are calling this bs and calling Thomas daft. Several transwomen in that thread were saying "been on HRT x years and still have an advantage over cis women".

As long as women fight back on this, there is enough evidence that in sport the TRAs won't win. Not at the elite level anyway. They will weasel their way into amateur sport and youth sport potentially, thus reducing the pool of girls and women, but at the elite level the evidence is just too overwhelming.

Datun · 27/01/2024 19:29

but at the elite level the evidence is just too overwhelming.

it's ridiculous, isn't it? And infuriating.

The advantage is the same at any level of sport.

Justme56 · 27/01/2024 19:33

Did you know Lia has a brother Wes. Wes went to the same Uni and was also a member of the swim team. I believe he was pretty decent and actually took part in an Olympic trial event (although don’t think it went anywhere). I have no idea how they compare regarding times when they were both swimming in the mens league.

Delphinium20 · 28/01/2024 06:44

Penn State is Ivy League. Thomas not only is an American white upper class male with good looks and health, he is in the top of all white Amecian upper class males with good looks and health because he attends an elite university. But, he still doesn't have enough, does he? He has to steal from the women because god forbid he's not at the pinnacle of the patriarchal pyramid. The hubris is mind blowing.

literalviolence · 28/01/2024 17:53

Some men don't like a level playing field which shows up their mediocrity. Some of those men will have tantrums when the world won't let them do what they like and won't pretend they're better than they are. The grown ups should put in strong boundaries and not listen to the emotional manipulation of such men.

Bookery · 30/01/2024 14:19

Delphinium20 · 28/01/2024 06:44

Penn State is Ivy League. Thomas not only is an American white upper class male with good looks and health, he is in the top of all white Amecian upper class males with good looks and health because he attends an elite university. But, he still doesn't have enough, does he? He has to steal from the women because god forbid he's not at the pinnacle of the patriarchal pyramid. The hubris is mind blowing.

University of Pennsylvania (UPenn or Penn) is an Ivy League school, not Pennsylvania State University (Penn State).