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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Another GC Employment Tribunal: Roz Adams vs Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre #5

976 replies

nauticant · 24/01/2024 15:43

Roz Adams was employed by Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre (ERCC) as a counsellor. She is claiming constructive dismissal for Gender Critical (GC) beliefs. The CEO of ERCC is a well known transwoman known for, among other things, controversial "reframe your trauma" remarks.

There's live tweeting from https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets or if Twitter doesn't show the tweets, look at https://nitter.net/tribunaltweets. There's an informative substack here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crisis-centre

This post explains how to get access to watch the hearing: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4988632-another-gc-employment-tribunal-roz-adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crisis-centre-2?page=24&reply=132419912

Abbreviations:
J: Employment Judge McFatridge
RA: Roz Adams, the claimant
NC: Naomi Cunningham, barrister for the claimant
ERCC or R: Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre, the respondent
DH: David Hay KC, barrister for the respondent
KM: Katy McTernan, ERCC Senior management
MR: Mairi Rosko, ERCC Board Member
MS: Miren Sagues, ERCC Board Member
KH: Katie Horburgh, ERCC Board Member
AB: ERCC staff member (name redacted)
NCi: Nico Ciubotariu, COO of ERCC
MW: Mridul Wadhwa, CEO of ERCC
BP: Beira's Place

RA gave evidence over 15-18 January 2024.

Witnesses:
Nicole Jones (NJ): 18 January 2024 (on behalf of RA)
Mairi Rosko (MR): 19 January 2024 (on behalf of ERCC)
Katy McTernan (referred to both as KT and KM): 22-23 January 2024 (on behalf of ERCC)
Miren Sagues (MS): 24 January 2024 (on behalf of ERCC)
Katie Horburgh (KH): 24 January 2024 (on behalf of ERCC)

Thread #1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4985570-another-gc-employment-tribunal-adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crsis
Thread #2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4988632-another-gc-employment-tribunal-roz-adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crisis-centre-2
Thread #3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4990903-another-gc-employment-tribunal-roz-adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crisis-centre-3
Thread #4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4991883-another-gc-employment-tribunal-roz-adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crisis-centre-4

OP posts:
Thread gallery
32
WallaceinAnderland · 25/01/2024 14:41

I have a question regarding the oath.

If you swear to tell the truth and then repeatedly assert that man is a woman if he says so, is this allowed because it is 'your truth' as opposed to 'the truth' i.e. it's what you believe?

And, if so, why aren't people allowed to 'misgender' i.e. correctly sex a person if that's their belief and instead have no option but to lie under oath?

NecessaryScene · 25/01/2024 14:51

If you swear to tell the truth and then repeatedly assert that man is a woman if he says so, is this allowed because it is 'your truth' as opposed to 'the truth' i.e. it's what you believe?

Or indeed repeatedly assert anything? Has "perjury" become obsolete?

MinervaBoudicca · 25/01/2024 14:57

apples24 · 25/01/2024 12:57

What a read.

I assume that as a Scottish tax-payer I will end up indirectly paying towards ERCC's defense given they're largely publicly funded. :(

When the verdict comes out, I'll be tempted to approach my MSP (Liz Smith) to ask what she makes of it all and whether she'd consider raising a Q at First Minister's questions.

yes - contacting MSPs, MPs & Cllrs is probably the most effective thing

ILikeDungs · 25/01/2024 15:08

Have just come back to the thread and see that pp disagree with my description of the witness as "cocky". Well she was cocky, and saying that is not attacking the player rather than the ball. I would not discuss her clothes, weight, haircut, accent. That is the player.

The "ball" needed her confident voice, that knew how to manipulate business/ progressive/ activist language to insert effective commercial breaks-- bigging up the thoroughness of the investigation into RA and the utter goodness of the ERCC while avoiding answering the questions. Being young was an added plus since NC would potentially be criticised if her questioning was seen as too harsh. A carefully selected witness.

Peppering NC's questions with yups and uh-huhs so NC was forced to pause, then continue, was a way for the witness to imply "yes, l approve of your question so far" as though she were in charge of the proceedings. Cocky.

Pertinent questions like "what would you define as transphobia?" (paraphrased) went unanswered, unapologetically. That also was cocky.

The witness confidently waffled on and on singing the praises of the ERCC knowing that she was wasting tribunal time-- indeed, with the aim (given the number of times she carried on) of wasting time. Oh yeah. Cocky.

HoneyButterPopcorn · 25/01/2024 15:12

I have been dropping on and out of tribunal tweets and sniggering been 🙄🤣😧🤨

the women interviews - under oath - are either incredibly dim or perjurers. Which is it? Either way, not fit to work with people.

pronounsbundlebundle · 25/01/2024 15:15

I was a bit disappointed NC didn't ask KH more and / or pursue some answers more robustly (e.g. regarding 'transphobia' definition) but on reflection and bearing in mind my known gap in experience of being a barrister, I think she very cleverly got the points she needed. KH was incapable of the independence of thought required of a trustee and did not have the experience or training to be involved in this disciplinary process. That's all she needed.

ILikeDungs · 25/01/2024 15:20

I am surprised that some people might have seen her as a future politician, in an admiring way. I think NC saw the witness as possessing the worst qualities of bad politicians: the waffling, avoiding questions, ideology trumping reality, with confidence. Or maybe it was just me.

KH spoke repeatedly about "respecting everyone's journey". Every time, l thought of the 60 year old who was turned away from ERCC because she understood biological reality. Turned away and not referred to another rape crisis center. What about her journey?

Brefugee · 25/01/2024 15:23

Just to be clear: I don't see it in an admiring of her way. More that we need more women in politics, even if we don't agree with them. Although thinking about the banner waving when Mhari Black got into parliament, maybe I'm wrong there.

GoodHeavens99 · 25/01/2024 15:26

ILikeDungs · 25/01/2024 15:08

Have just come back to the thread and see that pp disagree with my description of the witness as "cocky". Well she was cocky, and saying that is not attacking the player rather than the ball. I would not discuss her clothes, weight, haircut, accent. That is the player.

The "ball" needed her confident voice, that knew how to manipulate business/ progressive/ activist language to insert effective commercial breaks-- bigging up the thoroughness of the investigation into RA and the utter goodness of the ERCC while avoiding answering the questions. Being young was an added plus since NC would potentially be criticised if her questioning was seen as too harsh. A carefully selected witness.

Peppering NC's questions with yups and uh-huhs so NC was forced to pause, then continue, was a way for the witness to imply "yes, l approve of your question so far" as though she were in charge of the proceedings. Cocky.

Pertinent questions like "what would you define as transphobia?" (paraphrased) went unanswered, unapologetically. That also was cocky.

The witness confidently waffled on and on singing the praises of the ERCC knowing that she was wasting tribunal time-- indeed, with the aim (given the number of times she carried on) of wasting time. Oh yeah. Cocky.

Edited

I completely agree.

SirChenjins · 25/01/2024 15:29

Brefugee · 25/01/2024 15:23

Just to be clear: I don't see it in an admiring of her way. More that we need more women in politics, even if we don't agree with them. Although thinking about the banner waving when Mhari Black got into parliament, maybe I'm wrong there.

Careful now - 'women' means all sorts of things these days.

Froodwithatowel · 25/01/2024 15:34

I agree, I do find it interesting that we have seen a woman in court (who had been assaulted no less) punished for making mistakes regarding her attacker's personal choice of illusion regarding their sex as she tried to give evidence. Mistakes.

And yet how many of these tribunals have we now seen where witnesses are very obviously not being honest - the OU judgement makes clear the panel were certain of this in places - and it appears to pass without consequence or comment other than impacting on the judgement.

Seems a bit unequal.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/01/2024 15:51

Good point Frood.

ArabellaScott · 25/01/2024 16:02

WallaceinAnderland · 25/01/2024 14:41

I have a question regarding the oath.

If you swear to tell the truth and then repeatedly assert that man is a woman if he says so, is this allowed because it is 'your truth' as opposed to 'the truth' i.e. it's what you believe?

And, if so, why aren't people allowed to 'misgender' i.e. correctly sex a person if that's their belief and instead have no option but to lie under oath?

Good question. A woman forced to use the illogical pronouns for a man who's attacked her is not telling 'the truth'. She's mouthing 'a truth' that has been foisted upon her.

WallaceinAnderland · 25/01/2024 16:05

TRA take on the Jo Phoenix judgement. Clearly not read it. So much for journalism.

A bullying academic from the same social class as an uniformed judge, who decided abusing trans peeps is like “having a view on Brexit.”

https://twitter.com/IndiaWilloughby/status/1750547502464442657

https://twitter.com/IndiaWilloughby/status/1750547502464442657

DerekFaker · 25/01/2024 16:06

WallaceinAnderland · 25/01/2024 16:05

TRA take on the Jo Phoenix judgement. Clearly not read it. So much for journalism.

A bullying academic from the same social class as an uniformed judge, who decided abusing trans peeps is like “having a view on Brexit.”

https://twitter.com/IndiaWilloughby/status/1750547502464442657

A sizeable chunk of us have been blocked by India.

RedToothBrush · 25/01/2024 16:09

ILikeDungs · 25/01/2024 15:20

I am surprised that some people might have seen her as a future politician, in an admiring way. I think NC saw the witness as possessing the worst qualities of bad politicians: the waffling, avoiding questions, ideology trumping reality, with confidence. Or maybe it was just me.

KH spoke repeatedly about "respecting everyone's journey". Every time, l thought of the 60 year old who was turned away from ERCC because she understood biological reality. Turned away and not referred to another rape crisis center. What about her journey?

A reminder about audiences.

One of the audiences was a judge.

Judges are not known for their love of politicians and the evasiveness of politicians and the way they manipulate.

Even planting the comparison in a judges head - which I don't think anyone can really disagree with - is canny. It plays to how judges feel and response.

Also you are a trustee of a rape crisis organisation. What happens if someone from the public makes a complaint? A victim. Are you going to reply in similar fashion to protect the charity rather than answer a question frankly and honestly.

There are certain organisations we expect higher standards from than perhaps we might from others. A politician answer we might expect from a corporate workplace. But a rape charity who deal with very vulnerable women?

This comes back to the concept of Trust.

A rape charity has to have the very highest levels of understanding of trust and demonstrate it at all times at every level. Otherwise it harms the relationship with the women it serves.

You can't have people giving politician style answers at a rape charity without undermining trust and thus harming the relationship you have with women.

Think about it.

The manner in which these people respond isn't irrelevant. Would they respond in a similar way to service users? Is it appropriate?

Not only that but if you are found liable for employment issues, who suffers most? The women you serve. If they charity end up paying out that's straight out of money that could have been spent on women. It could kill the charity financially both due to it's current finances but also it's future one. But arguably if it is so badly run, it was prepared to take that risk, it might be better to start over from the ground up or for other alternative existing services to ultimately take over because I'm not sure I'd have faith or trust that this lot can sort their shit out with just how religiously they continue to repeat mantras or 'it wasn't my fault/responsibility'.

ArabellaScott · 25/01/2024 16:11

Did it really not occur to any of these people that, by any normal standards, RA had done nothing wrong?

No. She got put in the 'hate' folder, metaphorically speaking. If one is deemed to be a heretic, that's it. The rest of it is self justification fallacy.

RedToothBrush · 25/01/2024 16:12

WallaceinAnderland · 25/01/2024 16:05

TRA take on the Jo Phoenix judgement. Clearly not read it. So much for journalism.

A bullying academic from the same social class as an uniformed judge, who decided abusing trans peeps is like “having a view on Brexit.”

https://twitter.com/IndiaWilloughby/status/1750547502464442657

Why is anyone even quoting this nitwit anymore.

They never read anything or scrutinise anything. They are like Katie Hopkins or Owen Jones and we should not even rise to it. Because that's what they are after, a rise.

WallaceinAnderland · 25/01/2024 16:17

Agree @RedToothBrush

Also desperate to be sued to have their 15 minutes of 'fame' and be mildly relevant for a week or so.

<slaps own hand>

JanesLittleGirl · 25/01/2024 16:18

Can anyone confirm that the judge was, in fact, wearing a uniform?

FigRollsAlly · 25/01/2024 16:22

JanesLittleGirl · 25/01/2024 16:18

Can anyone confirm that the judge was, in fact, wearing a uniform?

😂 didn’t spot that typo!

FigRollsAlly · 25/01/2024 16:25

Largofesse · 25/01/2024 13:46

Deleted cos I stupidly haven't learned how to add the comment I was responding to.

Edited

@Largofesse To include the post you’re responding to, just click on the 3 little dots in the top right hand corner of that post and select “Quote”.

TheABC · 25/01/2024 16:34

Not only that but if you are found liable for employment issues, who suffers most? The women you serve. If they charity end up paying out that's straight out of money that could have been spent on women. It could kill the charity financially both due to it's current finances but also it's future one.

@Justabaker pointed out to me upthread that Maya was awarded £109K (thank you Just, for giving me hope on that point!). I checked ERCC's accounts for 2022/23, and they reported £1,974 616 for income, most of which came from grants.

If Roz gets something similar to Maya, I don't think it will kill the charity, but it would cut into their project funding and hurt their reputation.

RedToothBrush · 25/01/2024 16:37

TheABC · 25/01/2024 16:34

Not only that but if you are found liable for employment issues, who suffers most? The women you serve. If they charity end up paying out that's straight out of money that could have been spent on women. It could kill the charity financially both due to it's current finances but also it's future one.

@Justabaker pointed out to me upthread that Maya was awarded £109K (thank you Just, for giving me hope on that point!). I checked ERCC's accounts for 2022/23, and they reported £1,974 616 for income, most of which came from grants.

If Roz gets something similar to Maya, I don't think it will kill the charity, but it would cut into their project funding and hurt their reputation.

Who did Maya work for, what was their annual turnover and what sector were they in?

Pay outs often do reflect this type of thing - but even £1 is still £1 that the charity shouldn't be losing to poor governance.

Boiledbeetle · 25/01/2024 16:44

RedToothBrush · 25/01/2024 16:37

Who did Maya work for, what was their annual turnover and what sector were they in?

Pay outs often do reflect this type of thing - but even £1 is still £1 that the charity shouldn't be losing to poor governance.

She worked for Center for Global Development

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