Non Binary Teachers

[WandaWomblesaurus]

My daughter (older teen) has had a total of three non binary teachers across primary and high school.
All were biologically female.
All went by Mx.

I asked her about her observations of them and anything she noticed in common with them as I was curious about how they have affected her education over the years.

"They all try too hard to connect with their students in an inappropriately informal way, talking a lot about personal life and relationships. A lot of talk about gender as would be expected. Sharing stuff about their own personal lives and relationships to the class and asking us about our relationships."

"They hijack the subjects they are teaching putting gender in. So for example we had a relief teacher in an English class giving us a paper about girls saying they are boys and having mastectomies and we were asked to rewrite it in our own words. I wrote on the paper I didn't agree with it."

"All of them have trans flags, stickers, posters saying TRANS IS BEAUTIFUL. Advertising it as a lifestyle choice basically."

"They try and be charismatic by putting on the nb front of 'coolness' and progressiveness but actually they are all quite awkward and square."

"Clothing wise they still all majorly present as women. They might have a short haircut but they wear dresses and makeup and I don't see how they even look androgynous or are breaking any stereotypes."

"A lot of time in classes is spent trying to imprint their opinions on us and they go off topic. They only try and relate to the girls. They don't have the skills to relate to the boys. A couple of the girls in my classes talk openly about having crushes on these teachers."

"The MX is a big thing, they get very snippy if they aren't MX'd, even by kids who are struggling to understand basic things. The pronouns are always seen as more important than the student."

Curious stuff isn't it?
I can't imagine these teachers having power in schools for much longer.

I’m saying that in a school setting the same rule should apply to all. If you say children shouldn’t call a teacher who was born female “they” are you also saying they shouldn’t refer to a classmate as “they”?

Ah, so in your view children should be compelled by the school setting to refer to other children as "they". Right, so that is the same thing. Then it's wrong in both instances. If someone were to inclined to extend a courtesy requested of them, they certainly should, but they should never be forced to go along with this nonsensical fantasy.

With respect, it doesn't matter what you think, since your pedagogical knowledge is obviously not that of a professional educator or neuroscientist.

It's the needs of children and SEN children that matter.

That ND children and young people often have difficulty with pronouns is well-known. In addition, a few parents and teachers have included anecdotes on this thread.

That object cogency, permanence and naming are crucial stages in infantile and juvenile brain development is also well-known and research in this area has been building rapidly since Piaget laid the foundations.

That pronouns can cause difficulties for people whose first language is not English is of course obvious to anyone with even a cursory understanding of the Indo-European language families, which is probably most of us on this thread, so I won't go into that.

It's about the pupils and their educational needs, not adults and their egos.

I never used the word “compelled” or “forced”. At school we have certain students who use “they”, it’s never been an issue. We have one teacher who goes by “Mx”. Again, as far as I know, never been an issue.

@CantDealwithChristmas i am a professional educator. It’s my job. I am not a neuroscientist, it’s true. Are you?

So, to get this straight, you are saying that being asked to call someone ‘he’ who they thought was a ‘she’ will cause neurological damage to a child? Have I got that right?

If a child in their class decided to identify as trans/non-binary would you instruct your child to ignore their chosen pronouns?

I would tell my child that they had a choice about the pronouns that they wanted to use. I would share with my child that I choose to use "preferred pronouns" with adults at work (or ideally I avoid pronouns completely), even though I don't share their belief that they have a gender identity. However, I never use preferred pronouns for a child... and this is where it all gets VERY messy.

I have had such conversations with my children, carefully over time.

My neurotypical child thinks the whole thing is too much effort and pointless. But she uses preferred pronouns with her friends because it's the "kind thing to do". She's not interested in why children are vulnerable in this, nor fully capable of understanding it. It's just a word, right? (Sarcasm). My neurodiverse child thinks talking about this topic is "transphobic" because she believes that it's true that everyone has a gender identity. She is the vulnerable one and I'm acutely aware that she is likely to be pulled further towards the impact of gender identity belief if she loses her trust in me. Therefore, most of what I do to support her is indirect, through her EHCP, the school and CAMHS. The effort this requires can not be overstated and it angers me that we're in this situation.

It cannot be stated loudly enough that social transition is not a neutral act and that it can lead to psychological harm. Not my words, but those of an expert in healthcare, Dr Hillary Cass. I really hope that this comes through loud and clear in the government guidance and that we see very few cases where children adopt preferred pronouns in school. This is a whole extra topic and there are other threads where this is discussed, so I'm reticent to say more here as it's a derail from the topic in hand about non-binary teachers.

No, you've got that wrong. I said that object permanence, naming, categorisation are fundamental stages in children's neurological development and requiring that a child use language which does not match their empirical observation of the world risks damaging their neurological development. This is not a baseless assertion, it is one of the central tenets of child development theory.

My other observations around the difficulties many ND children encounter with pronouns are well known to teachers.

So, to get this straight, you are saying that being asked to call someone ‘he’ who they thought was a ‘she’ will cause neurological damage to a child? Have I got that right?

Have you read the interim report from the Cass Review?
I hope that all teachers will read this when considering their views on preferred pronouns. The harms of social transition are referenced in the draft schools' guidance but reading the report really helps to crystallise what that means.

https://cass.independent-review.uk/publications/interim-report/

surely it’s just basic respect to treat people and address people by how they want to be named? Calling someone Mx literally makes no difference to your day whatsoever

and yes before anyone comes for me I understand the issues with trans women using women’s spaces but pronouns and non binary people is not related to this at all

It's not just wrong, it's blatant gaslighting. "Don't believe what your eyes are seeing or what your ears are hearing and definitely don't believe your mind or your instincts, believe what I am telling you."

Not necessarily, because calling people these things can signal that you're in agreement with the beliefs underpinning it, even if you aren't.

So by being respectful of someone means you agree with their beliefs?
I call someone ‘Dr’ because they have been awarded a PHD. I don’t need to agree with what they tell me but I would always be respectful of what they want to be called. Always

Phobias are fears. Questioning an ideology ( a whole set of ideas about how the world works) is not 'phobic'.

Very well put.

It is actually quite startling how many young people now mindlessly imbibe, without critical evaluation, such ideas wholesale.

Interestingly, in my own circles I’ve mostly encountered that attitude amongst middle aged women.
My teenagers seem much less inclined to accept the gender ideology without questioning than some of my friends.

@StephanieSuperpowers to play devils advocate then- I in no way agree with the Catholic Church. But a lot of my family are Catholic, I was brought up Catholic. When I come into contact occasionally with a family friend who is a priest I still call him Father John (not his real name!) To not address him as Father would be wholly disrespectful, but it doesn’t mean I condone his beliefs.

He can't compel you to call him that though, in the way a school can compel children. It's a choice you make to use a title you consider respectful. He can't put you in detention if you don't do it.

And where are these schools putting children in detention for refusing to call someone Mx?

They’re only told to do it as it’s disrespectful not too - the world won’t implode because you call someone Mx.

Do you call people Dr who simply identify as having a PhD or a medical degree? Just because they want to be called Dr?

And 'Dr' doesn't undermine sex based safeguarding for children.

And 'Dr' doesn't undermine sex based safeguarding for children

I don’t think ‘Mx’ does? I don’t believe that calling a teacher a gender-neutral name is a safeguarding issue. Otherwise it wouldn’t be permitted by the DSL at our school.

I call people whatever they want to be called as it is respectful to do that imo
How does the term ‘Mx’ undermine sex based safeguarding? It’s not as if they’re pushing themselves into women’s toilets is it? They don’t believe that they align with their sex/gender so they choose not to do that.

My point is, your knee-jerk approach on an anonymous internet board is to try and exert an appeal to authority and shut down discussion. Rather than chatting with people. It's a worrying sign, in my opinion, especially in someone who is responsible for educating children. Smacks of authoritarianism.

So someone says their child was rude about a teacher. You honestly think that merits 'reporting'?

GreenYoshi12
They don’t believe that they align with their sex/gender so they choose not to do that.

And yet this sentence highlight the problem. They are the sex that they are, gender is a construct. If you are conflating the two then you are wrong.

Would you call someone ‘Dr’ who hadn’t been awarded a PhD, but wanted to be referred to as ‘Dr’ anyway?

A reminder of what a pp said on this thread:
My DC have had a male NB teacher who was absolutely militant about the Mx. No ifs, buts, excuses. I've never met them, but apparently clearly male, dresses in formal male teacher attire, etc etc but if a child slips up and says "sir" they are pulled up on it immediately.
Regardless of their teaching ability, it puts stress on the DC. A child of a friend became really anxious about making a mistake unintentionally and wanted to avoid school. Find me a teacher who hasn't been called 'Mum' etc and they've just ignored it and moved on.

That's an adult creating a hostile learning environment for children to suit his own ideological agenda. In a classroom, scared of making a mistake because children are being asked to deny the evidence in front of them. My guess is that some posters on this thread have never parented an anxious child, a child with SEN, a child with English as their second language or a bullied child.

Adults like this NB teacher are prioritising their own luxury belief over the rights and needs of children to learn in a safe and welcoming environment. That's unforgivable.

It is because it sends the strong message to the child that their perceptions matter less than the adult who is demanding the different pronouns.

How can they disclose abuse if they are confused about the sex of their abuser? It makes it much less likely.

Especially if the abuser tells them they're a bigot if they disclose and they've already experienced adults undermining their perceptions and telling them they have to blindly follow what an adult says even if it feels completely wrong and is about something as fundamental as easily observable binary sex in adults.