Confused on the concept of non binary

[ireallycantthinkofaname]

Please be nice, i am not the sharpest knife in the box under normal circumstances and I'm running on about 6 hrs sleep over the past week at the minute.....

But something I've been trying and failing to understand re. the concept of 'non binary' in the 'gender movement' (or whatever it is/ought to be called) is that on the one hand, people who subscribe to that philosophy are saying they reject the traditional idea of explicit male/femaleness (because if "trans women are women" then they have swapped for instance). But then if you have 'non binary' individuals isn't that pretty much saying oh yes, actually there is a binary - and some people don't subscribe to it?

I do acknowledge sex =/= gender but not all NB people are intersex/have DSD

<<thoroughly discombobulated>>

I agree. Those telling people that their identity can’t exist and that it’s only a label so people can feel special are imposing their belief system on those who do not share it.

"In order for me to feel extra special I need to stick the rest of you into today little boxes."

That's progress for you.

😂

Atheists who tell religious people “I don’t believe in your god” are not imposing their atheism on the religious person. Telling a person who says they are non-binary I don’t believe their self-description is some form of special identity is not imposing my gender atheism on that person.

That's interesting!

So do you think nonbinary is more prevalent now because of sexist culture?

Only true if your definition of "woman" is fluffy pink ladybrain.

Who woulda thunk all that newspeak could turn into a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I agree. Those telling people that their identity can’t exist and that it’s only a label so people can feel special are imposing their belief system on those who do not share it.

That's a novel DARVO twist

Oh, so a NB person telling you they are NB can’t be imposing their belief system on you either. Nor would having a NB group in the community. Or articles and books being published about NB people. Not imposing.

Something else this thread has made me think: on the one hand, it would be easier undoubtedly if all humans simply acknowledge that there are as many 'correct' ways of being human as there are humans. Labels create division, create ingroups and outgroups, 'us and them' mindsets, which then cause friction between groups.
So why do we feel compelled to label ourselves? The naming of the thing makes it no more a thing than it already is.

I never said an individual was imposing. But there are pushes to make non-binary a legal status, and it has happened in some countries, which means it’s being imposed on the rest of us.

And it matters when teenage girls who see themselves as non-binary go down the route of medication and surgery.

Oh, so a NB person telling you they are NB can’t be imposing their belief system on you either. Nor would having a NB group in the community. Or articles and books being published about NB people. Not imposing.

I mean, other people's identity beliefs are just not very interesting to anyone else, but it's up to them, and I can generally remove myself from the environment they are in.

My problem, which you chose to ignore even though I gave a specific real world example, is when they impose it on others in a way which affects their lives negatively.

As long as I'm not forced or expected to participate in any of it including not having to use made up pronouns or grammatically incorrect language no it's not imposing

I was watching something on TV where the guy said he was non-binary. He lived with a woman and he used male pronouns. He was a heterosexual bloke!

Saying “I don’t believe in your god”, is completely different to saying “I don’t believe your description that you believe in your god”. And, as identity isn’t religion, a better comparison is “I don’t believe in nationalities” vs “I don’t believe you think you’re British; it’s not a special identity”.

I've come to realisation I'm culturally non-binary. We will have to accommodate my new identity by differentiating amongst the non-binary identities. I'm Culturally non-binary vs. other people who are Gender non-binary.
I wasn't born British but England (particularly the North) feels like coming home.
I told my mum at around 9 years of age that I don't see myself staying in my country of birth as I "don't belong".

Luckily, I don't have to mutilate my body to fit in here - I just have to pretend to like fish&chips and Sunday roast 😁 I'm not British enough to like the British quisine, so non-binary it is!

There being an extra tick box on demographics isn’t imposing on you at all. No more than there being an atheist tick box for you isn’t imposing atheism on anyone else.

@ireallycantthinkofaname
"The naming of the thing makes it no more a thing than it already is."

I once had an 'interesting' discussion with a young female who claimed she was not a woman. She used a female name and pronouns and presented very feminine, in a sterotypical way.
It seemed to me as she was only 'rebelling' against being 'called' a woman? 😳

Yes, for example, Canada has been imposing by making misgendering hate speech.

A woman who identifies as non binary says, I’m not like other girls. Those girly girls who do what the patriarchy tells them to. They are women because they adhere to the stereotypes. That’s what a woman is: the stereotypes. But I’m cool and deep and interesting and transcend stereotypes. So I can’t possibly be a woman, can I?

Ifs such faulty thinking. It’s narcissistic and cloudy and masquerading as being non conformist. Whereas in fact it props up the idea of what society says maleness and femaleness should be; and feeds the TRAs who offer a toxic path of medicalisation and life changing surgery to very young people.

This 100%
And very individualistic

But it isn’t just an extra tick box. It changes access to services, sport, a whole range of things. And it’s imposing on me if I’m am expected to refer to an individual as “they”.

I know queer was used as an insult.

Apparently though the term gender queer first appeared in queer zones in the 80's. At least according to a Google, and then popularized in the 90's by Riki Wilchins who is an American Activist.

They are actually really interesting to read about. They started GenderPac. If anyone is interested there seems to be a lot of information on them which might answer some of the questions here.

I had no clue about a lot of the info or the advocacy they pioneered for lgbtq youth. They have done some pretty amazing things.

Thinking you are nonbinary is about internal sense of being, not stereotypes. Someone can think they are nonbinary, and conform to girly girl stereotypes.

And thinking you are nonbinary doesn’t mean medicalisation, any more than thinking you are British means you must wear a Union Jack and drink tea.

Saying “I don’t believe in your description that you believe in your god” is not me imposing my belief system either. If I believe a person has come to the wrong conclusion due to their thought processes, I am not imposing that on them, they can take it or leave it.

Belief in an innate gender identity and belief in a god are similar. They both require faith in something unprovable and intrinsic to the inner feelings and belief of a person. In fact you almost have to be quasi-religious to believe in a gender identity because it requires a belief in some sort of soul, or separation of body and spirit for someone to be “born in the wrong body”.

Thinking you are nonbinary is about internal sense of being

Of what? What is it based on? You make zero sense.

It's all about stereotypes.