Confused on the concept of non binary

[ireallycantthinkofaname]

Please be nice, i am not the sharpest knife in the box under normal circumstances and I'm running on about 6 hrs sleep over the past week at the minute.....

But something I've been trying and failing to understand re. the concept of 'non binary' in the 'gender movement' (or whatever it is/ought to be called) is that on the one hand, people who subscribe to that philosophy are saying they reject the traditional idea of explicit male/femaleness (because if "trans women are women" then they have swapped for instance). But then if you have 'non binary' individuals isn't that pretty much saying oh yes, actually there is a binary - and some people don't subscribe to it?

I do acknowledge sex =/= gender but not all NB people are intersex/have DSD

<<thoroughly discombobulated>>

Weather, cats, dogs, holidays…

those typically gendered subjects.

Saying there is a British culture and identity isn’t saying there is something innate about British nationality, they are not synonymous.

British culture and identity is an umbrella identity anyway as under it is English, Welsh, Scottish, Londoner, Northern cultures and other regional/national identities.

There is overlap, gender neutral topics.

Is this "British" identity innate, do you think? And if not, what does it tell us about being uncomfortable with your sex?

MN is gender conforming. Why else do you think the vast majority of posters are women? There isn’t much that appeals to men.

I am not confused at all, I am just rephrasing what you are saying:

"NB people know they feel different"

We all feel different (because there is no actual way of knowing how everyone else feels). But NB want a special label

Housekeeping is just a function that has to be done
Gender conforming men wouldn’t have an entire talk topic dedicated to it.

I used to run in circles where I knew a lot of trans and nonbinary people. By which I mean I could go to a social gathering and a very sizeable portion didn't want to be referred to by sex-based pronouns.

The vast vast majority of the NB people I've known IRL (as well as the ones I've seen online) are female, have or are pursuing an autism / ADHD diagnosis, have body dysmorphia in a way that is not directly related to biological sex (e.g. weight, physical disability or chronic illness) and have past experience of sexual assault or harassment. In fact, at least two of these apply to every single openly NB person I have met.

Given my personal experience, I do believe NB people genuinely feel different from the general population. However, I am not convinced it's due to an inherent, objective gender identity that functions like some kind of psychological DSD, rather a feeling of being out of place that is explained through the framework of gender identity theory.

It would also explain why so many of us here completely lack an internal sense of gender, yet do not consider ourselves NB as we don't subscribe to that specific framework.

Like feminists want a special label?

Nonbinary people from what I know don't feel like a man or woman.

What does it feel like? I don't "feel like a woman", I just am one.

Almost everything is gender neutral, Barrio.

There are some sex based areas, like conception and fertility and so on.

There are some culturally imposed, misogynistic areas like housekeeping and elderly parents- it’s not right that women do more than there fair of these due to societal pressures.

Then there’s everything else.
DH and my niece love formula one. I like cooking. We all like the dog…

As I said before, Style and Beauty and weight loss seem to be female preoccupations but I’d argue that misogynistic norms are implicit there too.

when you say 'here', are you referring to mumsnet please?

People who say they’re non-binary describe being non-binary in ways that are common experiences of humans. There is nothing unique about what they describe. They’re just describing their personality, feelings about their place in the world and interests. Somehow this gives them a particular identity.

For others, the same description is just their personality, feelings about their place in the world and interests.

This is applicable to all apparent gender identities.

Given my personal experience, I do believe NB people genuinely feel different from the general population. However, I am not convinced it's due to an inherent, objective gender identity that functions like some kind of psychological DSD, rather a feeling of being out of place that is explained through the framework of gender identity theory.

This is great. The thing to understand about gender identity is that it isn’t all innate. It is nature and nurture and why everyone is unique. The seeds are there when we are born, but what shape of tree we grow into is influenced by our life experiences. Gender identity isn’t like sexuality or sex which are innate.

It’s the answer to the question who am I? (In relation to do I have an internal sense of myself being male, female, both, neither, no sense, etc)

It’s very common that people just feel that they are themselves, I think. Only some people explicitly identify as something (like nonbinary), or necessarily think about it at all. It’s not necessary to internally identify as something, just as it isn’t necessary to decide you are gay or straight. Just being, and feeling that you are yourself is fine. Some people have a strong internal sense of themselves being male, female, both or neither though.

If you just go about the day thinking you’re you, and someone asks you if you have an internal sense of being male, female, both or neither, it can be a confusing question, if it’s not a question you’ve considered before.

There's nothing wrong with having any fanciful inner identities or beliefs. The problem comes when you impose your belief system on people who do not share it, and are negatively impacted by it.

Sorry, I should have been clearer. By "here" I mean those commenting on this specific board, as there is a pattern of people who do not feel a sense of gender identity (outside of the objective reality of their sex) but reject that this makes them nonbinary. I can't speak for Mumsnet in general.

In the 1980s, there were “gender benders” such as David Bowie and Annie Lennox. This wasn’t particularly new, even then. No one thought (for example) Boy George wasn’t a man, even though he was gender nonconforming.

In the 1980s, “queer” was a word used by homophobes towards gay men, often accompanied by violence.

Some of us were alive in the 1980s. It’s not a mythical time before living memory.

Not when you consider what is missing from the talk topics that would be there if this were a site dominated by men. It would be a completely different site.

Culturally imposed or not, it’s still gender conforming because MN reflects the gender stereotypes, roles and expectations for women.

eh?

So for eg. There is a rape crisis centre employment tribunal case happening right now. It is centring around a "non binary" person and the difficulty in assuring raped women they can have a female support worker when their needs come second to staff members' "identity" issues.

I'm not particularly familiar with Cree culture. But Lakota/Dakota have a third gender concept and historically terrible treatment of women. Whereas Iroquois culture was far more egalitarian and has no third gender tradition. Similarly Balakan sworn virgins and Afghan bacha posh arose from cultures where it was absolutely impossible for a family to function without a man, so women had to be allowed to substitute (under very restricted conditions to make it clear they were still inferior to real men). Hijra and khawaja sira are from cultures with a huge gender divide that ejects insufficiently manly men from their sex class and treats them as a version of the inferior (female) sex. It takes slightly different forms wherever it's found, but always the same pattern of cropping up in highly sexist societies.

Another case was won by a criminology professor yesterday. That also centres around a "non binary" person and their feelings.

It also matters because teenage girls who describe themselves as non-binary are getting mastectomies.

YY @NotBadConsidering