Policing Men's Clothes

[MalagaNights]

There's an interesting debate going on twitter between many of the GC feminists I follow and Sarah Phillimore and Helen Pluckrose.

It seems to hit on some of the themes we've been involved in discussing on here previously. Particularly linked to the man in a dress at Genspect.

https://x.com/SVPhillimore/status/1748983536785190951?s=20

Helen Pluckrose states somewhere that there is a a streak of authoritarianism in GC feminism. With some wanting to control what men can wear.

Sarah and Helen seem to be saying you can't legislate for this which I actually don't think anyone is arguing for. They're arguing with a straw man I think.

But what I think they're missing is the societal shift that has socially accepted men in women's clothes has allowed many men permission to have their fetish publicly celebrated.

We could turn that around with a change in social attitude. E.g many companies have now allowed men to wear the women's uniform at work. They don't have to allow this. We could return to men and women's uniforms including practical options for both.

We could openly discuss and express our discomfort about men who do this is usually sexual, instead of pretending it's just fashion. Everyone used to know this about cross dressing and that's why it was done privately.

Then we hit on the tricky issue how do we discriminate between men who are AGP and men who like exploring fashion?

Helen Pluckrose is arguing it's not usually sexual and if you are uncomfortable deal with your own feelings.

We could ensure that where men still insist on performing feminity we at least don't have to listen to why they're so brave and their 'story' to self discovery, as has been happening in work places.

I actually think the 'it's just clothes' ' let's abolish gender' stance of some feminists has led to this opportunity for men to queer the boundaries and bring their sexual fetish into every day life. I think we're discovering that some of the boundaries we had around the sexes, performed a role which we've thrown away.

I agree with Sarah that we can't legislate for this. But we never had legislation on clothing we just had socially acceptable rules which change over time with common consent.

Anyway, it's very heated over on twitter and I think we've actually reached a point of having to address this issue. How do we deal with men who get a sexual thrill from wearing women's clothes. Once we've all agreed they're men. Then what?

If there's no such thing as men's clothes and women's clothes but just clothes then the sexual fetish aspect will die out within a generation. We should actively encourage uniform policies that are the same for men and women and are totally ok with men in dresses/skirts. It's true and unpleasant that AGPs get a thrill from wearing things they perceive to be "for women" so the sooner a dress is normalised as something that's totally fine for either men or women, the sooner it will stop being auch a big deal.

What the uniform policies should be clear on is that no uniform item should be of a tightness or style that make it possible to see anyone's genital area. Men wearing a tight skirt that makes it clear they have an erection is indecent. But they are welcome to wear a looser fitting skirt if they choose.

It's perfectly possible for dress-codes to be neither male nor female, but to avoid the fetishisation of the clothing/uniform then the same standards must apply to both men and women.

eg: not revealing too much flesh in formal settings. Skirt length not being too short, skirts/tops not being too tight etc. I have no problem with a man wearing dresses and skirts to work but they need to be 'appropriate'. Without outing myself I have experience of a trans woman who has used the acceptance of their workplace to parade in sky-high heels, tiny mini skirts and skin tight body con dresses every day - no-one feels they can ask for more modest attire to be worn (for fear of transphobia accusations) yet for years actual women have been applying the usual (formal modest) dress code for office attire.

It's that kind of utopian thinking that has got us here.

People will always use clothes to distinguish between the sexes. They always have throughout history and across cultures. There are many deep seated reasons for this. Linked to roles and sexuality. Humans want distinction between the sexes. How they do this changes over time and culture but it's always there.

The idea that we can override this human instinct in one generation and clothes would all be unisex is just not based in reality.

Fashion will change, some clothing will become unisex and new ways of being distinctive will emerge.

Mary Harrington was talking the other day about how their used to be tools women used and men could not touch these. Humans are hugely aware of sex and have always had boundaries around sex.

Even if skirts for men were to become normalised which could happen over time. Where are all the men adopting this as a fashion choice? There aren't any.

This isn't a fashion movement it's a queering boundaries movement.

It's an interesting discussion on Twitter. I think on balance I am on the side of I don't feel like policing peoples clothing is the right direction for feminists to be going in as a reaction to trans activism. I think we will create unintended problems for ourselves further down the line.

This opportunity for men to queer the boundaries and bring their sexual fetish into every day life. I think we're discovering that some of the boundaries we had around the sexes, performed a role which we've thrown away.

I think this probably nails it. Baby went out with the bathwater.

Where are the men asking to wear skirts to work for fashion reasons?

Where is this revolutionary fashion movement which has changed boundaries around clothing?

There isn't one. It's men wanting to pretend to be women who want this not men who like to expand their fashion choices.

It baffles me that this naivety continues that we're all in favour of changing fashion boundaries and that is what's happening here alongside this trans movement.

Again: this isn't a fashion movement it's a queering the boundaries movement and pretending that as a side issue it's lovely that some men can wear skirts is just wishful thinking.

Where are the skirts in men's Zara?
There aren't any. Because this isn't about men's fashion it's about men queering the norms.

Helen Pluckrose states somewhere that there is a a streak of authoritarianism in GC feminism.

No shit, Sherlock. 😆

We could return to men and women's uniforms including practical options for both.

This is a bad idea for women. What these separate uniform rules do is practically never equal for women, but mandate femininity for women.

This exchange between Sarah Phillimore and some other feminists is interesting:

https://x.com/SVPhillimore/status/1748962086900658589?s=20

She seems to get stuck on the idea of 'decency' and cannot conceptualise a society where this is generally understood and shared and socially regulated.
She seems to only think in terms of legislation and government bringing about change rather than culture.

This to me is falling into queer theory. There should not be any boundaries around sex and sexuality beyond the basic legal necessity e.g. consent and we should reject all attempts to suggest we share values beyond the law and which are less definable such as decency.

and cannot conceptualise a society where this is generally understood and shared and socially regulated.

How do you see this working practically though? We haven't had a society which strongly regulates what men and women wear for a number of decades? We would need to reverse up quite a bit. Where would you draw the lines of when a boundary has been crossed?

This thread reminds me of an old friend who was really into Goth fashion. She was often mistaken for Siouxsie Sioux , who she knew from clubs.

Anyway her boss at a famous department store insisted on her toning down the Goth look. My friend pointed out that her attire was modest whereas the other women were showing lots of leg and cleavage. To no avail.
There is an argument for wearing less overtly sexualised clothing at work for both men and women?

I agree with this. People are pretending they can't see what's going on right in front of their eyes with this.

MalagaNights (interesting name choice in the circumstances), I’d be surprised if many people on this board want to police anyone’s clothing choice beyond decency. Men do wear skirts, apparently for fashion reasons - see David Beckham and Harry Styles; different cultures have male attire which bears a passing resemblance to skirts and dresses; my guess is that millions of women wear jeans and a tee shirt - originally considered a masculine clothing choice. I also think that anything which is banned immediately becomes more attractive for some people - the less it bothers anyone, the less exciting it is.

One of my main issues with the trans ideology is the idea that your sex should restrict your choices, and that includes dress. If you’re a man who feels like wearing a (n appropriate) skirt/dress, as far as I’m concerned, crack on. Doesn’t make you a woman, and you don’t have to try to become a woman for that to be an option for you.

Subtext, I do have a major problem with retailers using male models to advertise women’s clothes to women - I want to see what it looks like on a female body!

@HagoftheNorth I've had this name for a long time. Long before the agp link was made on this board. I'm quite a regular poster here.

There are women on this board who want to restrict what men wear in some circumstances. See the Genspect thread and the man in a dress at their conference.
There are many women who object to men performing their fetish in public.

The idea that men are wearing skirts as fashion choices is laughable. Yes an occasional celeb has, but I ask again if this is a fashion movement where are the skirts in men's shops? There aren't any.

Pretending that men are wearing dresses for fashion choices is deliberate naivety. Or wishful thinking.

I'm fine with fashion changing over time and clothing choices changing. But that is not what we have happening at the moment and it's silly to pretend it is.

We have cross dressing made acceptable in public. It previous wasn't socially acceptable as everyone knew it had a sexual element.

I now see feminists pretending there are two different groups: men who have a fetish and men who are expanding fashion choices. I say the latter group isn't a thing at this point, it's just that feminists want it to be. It helps with their abolishing gender agenda.
But pretending that's what the current men in dresses phenomenon is is actually sanctioning, or giving cover, to the fetishists.

I disagree about it only.being fetishists, I think there are some gay men who enjoy wearing dresses, and they are not AGPs.

I don't agree with public displays of fetishes.

up until I peaked, I used to enjoy seeing men in dresses, at festivals and things, as an expression of freedom.This has sadly been ruined for me, I can't disassociate it with the breaking down of women's boundaries.

We could turn that around with a change in social attitude. E.g many companies have now allowed men to wear the women's uniform at work. They don't have to allow this. We could return to men and women's uniforms including practical options for both.

That's not Feminism, it's social conservatism. I would like a society where clothes are less gendered, not more. I think this putting people into gendered boxes is what has allowed Gender Ideology to flourish.

The fetishists show themselves in many ways. We don't need rigid gender roles to spot a creep.

Thing is men and women's bodies are quite different. I don't want to wear unisex clothes, they don't fit me. I need clothes that will fit boobs, and a smaller waist, and different shaped legs. I don't want saggy mens clothes.

Equally a man wouldn't normally want to wear clothing that is tailored for female shapes.

I want clothes that have been well designed for bodies like mine, women's bodies.

Of course. Companies can make women's trousers and can just as easily make mens skirts, blouses etc.

But why would a man want to wear a skirt? for what reason?

I know that if I am on.my.period and.need very thick pads I wear a skirt so they can't be seen. But what reason would a man want to wear a skirt?

I would also argue that in every single culture there is a.difference in clothing for men and women. It clearly has a role to play in human society. I'm not sure it is a feature we should just throw out, without deeply understanding why it happens

Wearing a kaftan or a kilt or a lungi
is VERY different
from wearing an ill fitting mini dress

bald blokes in practical loose dresses at summer festivals
are VERY different
from wonky wig head tilters

blokes can wear what they like
so long as they accept they are blokes and use male spaces

western dress is not the only option after all

Cooler in summer? Less restrictive? Possibly the same reason I wear a floaty dress in summer. Maybe even Easier for a wee?

There are male skirts and dresses in other cultures. The kaftan, kilt, sarong, and various robes and tunics I don’t know the name of in Arabia and Africa.

The Greeks and romans wore tunics.

There is nothing intrinsically masculine about trousers or feminine about skirts.

There is a gorgeous young man on one of the socials who dresses brilliantly. He’s undoubtedly masculine, yet wears sharp stylish clothes including skirts and looks awesome.

"But what reason would a man want to wear a skirt?"

Um ... the same reason a woman might want to wear a pair of trousers (or DMs, or a Dinner Jacket, or her boyfriends biker jacket, or baseball boots ...), because that's what they want to wear. There doesn't have to be another reason.

People wear all sorts of batshittery. Some women cake their faces in makeup and wear shoes they can barely walk in. That seems far less logical than a skirt.

I don't like that look myself but I wouldn't want a repressive society as a counter to that.

Who cares why people make the sartorial choices they do? Live and let live.

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/jan/03/skirts-men-fashion-feminism

Phineas Harper?