Policing Men's Clothes

[MalagaNights]

There's an interesting debate going on twitter between many of the GC feminists I follow and Sarah Phillimore and Helen Pluckrose.

It seems to hit on some of the themes we've been involved in discussing on here previously. Particularly linked to the man in a dress at Genspect.

https://x.com/SVPhillimore/status/1748983536785190951?s=20

Helen Pluckrose states somewhere that there is a a streak of authoritarianism in GC feminism. With some wanting to control what men can wear.

Sarah and Helen seem to be saying you can't legislate for this which I actually don't think anyone is arguing for. They're arguing with a straw man I think.

But what I think they're missing is the societal shift that has socially accepted men in women's clothes has allowed many men permission to have their fetish publicly celebrated.

We could turn that around with a change in social attitude. E.g many companies have now allowed men to wear the women's uniform at work. They don't have to allow this. We could return to men and women's uniforms including practical options for both.

We could openly discuss and express our discomfort about men who do this is usually sexual, instead of pretending it's just fashion. Everyone used to know this about cross dressing and that's why it was done privately.

Then we hit on the tricky issue how do we discriminate between men who are AGP and men who like exploring fashion?

Helen Pluckrose is arguing it's not usually sexual and if you are uncomfortable deal with your own feelings.

We could ensure that where men still insist on performing feminity we at least don't have to listen to why they're so brave and their 'story' to self discovery, as has been happening in work places.

I actually think the 'it's just clothes' ' let's abolish gender' stance of some feminists has led to this opportunity for men to queer the boundaries and bring their sexual fetish into every day life. I think we're discovering that some of the boundaries we had around the sexes, performed a role which we've thrown away.

I agree with Sarah that we can't legislate for this. But we never had legislation on clothing we just had socially acceptable rules which change over time with common consent.

Anyway, it's very heated over on twitter and I think we've actually reached a point of having to address this issue. How do we deal with men who get a sexual thrill from wearing women's clothes. Once we've all agreed they're men. Then what?

"There just aren't men wearing dresses in modern western culture as a fashion choice."

"The examples you give are rare or historical or cross cultural."

You are contradicting yourself. Just because it's rare, doesn't mean it isn't happening. It is.

And I don't understand why you'd say the cross cultural references are irrelevant. Of course they aren't. They are very relevant especially as the "western" world is multi-ethnic. Albeit I don't understand why this debate is restricted to the western world anyway.

And what do you want? To ban men from wearing skirts and dresses? You can't do that because all the examples given on this thread. So what's your point? What do you want to see happening?

In your OP you seem to want a return to "men's" and "women's" dress codes as an example. What would this achieve other than cementing societal's expectation of gender. Seems quite authoritarian and also the complete opposite of what I'd like to see achieved. I'm not sure how you'd see this as a step forward.

I agree that we need to be able to call out sexualised expressions of "gender identity" without fear. But this has nothing to do with whether a man should be allowed to wear a skirt or dress. A lot of harm has been done in recent years by conflation of ideas and a lack of clear and critical thinking. I think a lot of what you are trying to say is similar. Don't confuse an AGP with David Beckham or a man in traditional clothing or a man at a festival. It's unnecessary. You can fight one without having to leach into telling men what they can and cannot wear.

but why does he want to, and why does he like it?

Same reason some people like wearing dungarees or shell suits or bodycon dresses or power suits or clown costumes I guess….? Why does anyone like anything?

I think there is a balance right in the middle of all of this. One side is total strict boundaried oppressive gendered expectations. And at the other side is complete chaos with no social norms. Take the middle road.

Helen Pluckrose is arguing it's not usually sexual and if you are uncomfortable deal with your own feelings.
Ffs - this person is a bit simple and not supportive of women.

I suppose people choose their clothing based on either

Practicality
To be attractive
As a fetish
because it's the only clothes you have

https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/fashion/article/mens-skirts-trend-history

Nah, I’ll go for the chaos

I agree we shouldn't police clothes by gender.
We should police clothes by appropriateness for the situation. If a woman couldn't wear it in that situation then nor can men, eg too short skirt or cleavage.
Harry styles is fine, if a woman could wear a corset at awards so can he.
Sex is irrelevant to clothing which is culture. Heels and dresses were mens clothes first, pink was a male colour etc.

It is absurd that the entire female population has to dress differently to neutralise the feelings of a tiny percentage of the population. If people object to men wearing the ridiculous costume described above, then the answer is not to put real women into boilersuits. The answer is for the boss to have a word with him. If rhe rest of his employees have to dress appropriately then so does the trans woman.

I actually knew you would say this. I used to think like this too. But chaos is a dangerous place, it has no boundaries. Chaos is a very dangerous place for women and children, it is only social contracts that keep us safe from males. It is social contracts of what is right and wrong, and normal. We are seeing it now with how young TRA's have decided that they can punch elderly women in the face. The social contract has been broken and we are in chaos. Who is affected? the vulnerable - elderly women now face the potential of being punched in the face.

The only people that benefit from chaos, are fit young men. And sadists.

Normal men are absolutely wearing skirts as a fashion choice and it can look great.
I don't think it matters why they would want to but (as a woman) I like skirts because they are comfier and look cuter, especially on a heavier body - which men's normally are...
I also agree with a PP that the quicker they are no longer women's clothing the quicker the fetishizing will die down.

I’m not advocating for anyone to punch anyone in the face. I just don’t think men in skirts is a hill to die on. Let people wear and present however they like, the less boundaries around appearance the better.

OP you still haven’t said how you imagine policing men’s clothing choices would work in practice when society has pretty much taken a liberal stance on how men and women dress for decades. If it’s not by law how do you imagine this could be achieved?

Also would we also police women’s clothing choices or only men’s?

I think Harry Styles looked sexy as hell in the blue dress on the cover of Vogue.

I really don’t care about men wearing skirts or dresses, as long as they’re a style that would be appropriate for a woman in the same setting. If Bob from accounting wants to go to work wearing a tweed skirt that falls just below the knee, I can’t be bothered to care. If Bob shows up at work in a studded pleather micro-mini, that’s a different story.

One of my cousins was an effeminate little boy who loved wearing this long red prairie-style skirt. It was so sad seeing his parents enforce rules about this piece of red fabric - no wearing it outside the house, no wearing it around guests. He didn’t grow up to be a fetishist; he grew up to be a gay man who’s marrying his boyfriend later this year.

It is absurd that the entire female population has to dress differently to neutralise the feelings of a tiny percentage of the population. If people object to men wearing the ridiculous costume described above, then the answer is not to put real women into boilersuits.

Eh? Has anyone argued for that? OP is arguing that men and women should wear stereotypical masculine/feminine cloths and others are arguing that people should be free to choose.

I can't see any post arguing for boiler suits.

narcissists and perverts have always been a problem and you deal with it the same way you deal with any other minority group which is in a nuanced and intersectional way that won't have a collateral negative effect on larger group of people.
the black and white thinking that all crossdressing is fetishistic is exactly why you dont see men wearing regular skirts because its preferable to any normal person to dress in a way that limits self expression then be labeled a pervert.
go on other forums and and you will see posts of women upset people are giving them nasty looks when they were every day dress because people read them as trans, and you will also see the majority of trans ppl just wear black hoodies every day to conform to the gender roles that you swear to be breaking down, you did that, you insisted that naunce wasnt necessary and big suprise it mades things more rigid.

Wearing a kaftan or a kilt or a lungi
is VERY different
from wearing an ill fitting mini dress

Funnily enough though, tight-fitting hose, often with a miniskirt-like tunic or trunk hose and codpiece etc., was standard European clothing for wealthy gentlemen for a long time.

This was certainly to some extent about "sexual display" but it wasn't AGP because only men wore this gear - women's clothes were expected to be more modest.

By “authoritarian streak” I am assuming Pluckrose is mistaking women saying “no” firmly after having enough of all this shit.

By “policing clothing” based on the Genspect thread, I am assuming it’s being mistaken for a man who is a self-confessed AGP attending a conference in his version of fetishised clothing knowing he would stir up this sort of debate.

It is not GC people who have led to a discussion about possibly clamping down on men expressing themselves with clothes. It’s the AGPs who were given free rein to parade their fetish in public and women’s spaces and everyone has woken the fuck up. If gender non-conforming men feel aggrieved they can’t wear a mini skirt for fashion reasons, they can take it up with the AGP men for making everyone aware of its association with a paraphilia.

Men’s Clothes which are not trousers must have a place and purpose- they are so common elsewhere. I think trousers are very practical for riding a horse, motorcycle or bike but not much else.

They are more practical than a lot of women’s clothing but not because they are trousers- it’s more the associated tights and shoes that make skirts a nuisance. In summer with bare legs and sandals skirts are a dream. Kaftans even better!

I wouldn’t even argue that trousers are the typical menswear, across cultures and history. They might be pretty niche.

Sexualised behaviour is the issue, not the clothes.

By “authoritarian streak” I am assuming Pluckrose is mistaking women saying “no” firmly after having enough of all this shit.

Some women are saying “no”. Other women clearly don’t think the societal policing of men’s clothing is a grand idea. And there doesn’t seem to be anyone on this thread prepared to say how this policing might be achieved even if it was desirable. I wonder why that is?

I didn’t mean specific to men’s clothing. I meant that’s what is viewed as authoritarian when people say that about GC views.

There is no need, as well as no possibility of policing men’s clothes. There just needs to be recognition that men don’t belong in women’s spaces regardless of the clothes they wear and recognition that a good deal of men who wear women’s clothing, particularly if it’s overtly sexualised, do it for fetish reasons.

I agree with this and from what I’ve read Helen Pluckrose is using “authoritarian” in relation to those calling for the policing of men’s clothing not in relation to those calling for the maintenance of women’s single sex services, spaces and sports. This thread is about the policing of men’s clothing.

I have never seen a man wearing a skirt or dress where it looks like a stylish male fashion choice.

Apart from kilts and cultural dress.

The examples of this are vanishingly rare. You are grasping at straws. It's not a current movement.

I know what you mean in that it is rare, but it definitely exists, I have seen it.

The issue is, how do you "police" what men are wearing? It's a judgement call in workplaces, especially ones with very lax or no dress code.

Sarah Phillimore talks about the law because she's a lawyer and that's where her interest lies, so her response is perfectly coherent. How do we make rules for what we think is going on in a man's head?