Policing Men's Clothes

[MalagaNights]

There's an interesting debate going on twitter between many of the GC feminists I follow and Sarah Phillimore and Helen Pluckrose.

It seems to hit on some of the themes we've been involved in discussing on here previously. Particularly linked to the man in a dress at Genspect.

https://x.com/SVPhillimore/status/1748983536785190951?s=20

Helen Pluckrose states somewhere that there is a a streak of authoritarianism in GC feminism. With some wanting to control what men can wear.

Sarah and Helen seem to be saying you can't legislate for this which I actually don't think anyone is arguing for. They're arguing with a straw man I think.

But what I think they're missing is the societal shift that has socially accepted men in women's clothes has allowed many men permission to have their fetish publicly celebrated.

We could turn that around with a change in social attitude. E.g many companies have now allowed men to wear the women's uniform at work. They don't have to allow this. We could return to men and women's uniforms including practical options for both.

We could openly discuss and express our discomfort about men who do this is usually sexual, instead of pretending it's just fashion. Everyone used to know this about cross dressing and that's why it was done privately.

Then we hit on the tricky issue how do we discriminate between men who are AGP and men who like exploring fashion?

Helen Pluckrose is arguing it's not usually sexual and if you are uncomfortable deal with your own feelings.

We could ensure that where men still insist on performing feminity we at least don't have to listen to why they're so brave and their 'story' to self discovery, as has been happening in work places.

I actually think the 'it's just clothes' ' let's abolish gender' stance of some feminists has led to this opportunity for men to queer the boundaries and bring their sexual fetish into every day life. I think we're discovering that some of the boundaries we had around the sexes, performed a role which we've thrown away.

I agree with Sarah that we can't legislate for this. But we never had legislation on clothing we just had socially acceptable rules which change over time with common consent.

Anyway, it's very heated over on twitter and I think we've actually reached a point of having to address this issue. How do we deal with men who get a sexual thrill from wearing women's clothes. Once we've all agreed they're men. Then what?

Actually I've been back and reread my OP to see how disingenuous I was... and found I said this:

Sarah and Helen seem to be saying you can't legislate for this which I actually don't think anyone is arguing for. They're arguing with a straw man I think.

I clearly said no one wants legislation it's a straw man.

To which some posters then proceed to argue with a straw man...

I also suggested some ways of social pressure that don't involve the police or legislation.
So I think I was pretty clear.

On Twitter some women replying to HP are talking about using public shaming as a way to deter men who display their fetish in public

How would that work though? For some of these men isn't being humiliated part of the thrill? Trying to shame them would just increase their enjoyment.

I think seeing men in 'women's clothes' and not sexualising it is important for women's equality.

The problem is not 'men wearing women's clothes', the problem is that it is seen societally as humiliating and degrading for a man to wear 'women's clothes'... or it's reduced to a fetish. I suppose if we normalised it, it would also lessen the appeal for those who might just be fetishists or attention seekers although as long as they're not showing their tackle or arse cheeks or something I have no particular problem with fetishists or attention seekers either tbf. Maybe it gives you the 'ick', but, you know, flimsy flesh-toned leggings might give some people the ick but we don't demand people don't wear them.

Some men like the feeling of wearing skirts, some might like the greater choice of colours and patterns and what to wear from what is regarded as 'women's clothes' whatever their sexuality or gender identity and I'd love to see more of it personally.

It is.

Resister was talking about how we use societal pressure. First step don't be wilfully blind.

I'm not sure what your point is tbh.

It seems that everybody agrees that the Law shouldn't concern itself with what people wear. So the debate appears to be around societal policing (or pressure or control) of what people (men) are wearing. That is my understanding. So if this is desirable how is it achievable?

And apologies for using the word disingenuous I was frustrated and wish I hadn't said that. I think there are some genuine misunderstandings going on with this (probably in the same way as on Twitter)

I was with you at one point OP, then your comment about pyjamas and fetishwear (I think) put me in mind of the 80s.

I’m sure I remember tutting when people started wearing sports wear on the street instead of just at the athletic club.
I know I remember it when external corsetry, Madonna’s pointy bra, camisole tops etc became fashionable.

I'm not sure what your point is tbh.

I'll bow out now. We are obviously talking past each other.

I think you can't shame the individual that would likely be discriminatory.

But you shame the concept. You make it mockable and low status regarded as a bit pathetic to be bringing your fetish into the public.

I think the thrill is mostly coming from the power and compliance. Take that away.

In the workplace more : I'm not interested in your 'story', I'm keeping my opinion to myself but it's clear I don't hold you in high regard.
They've been given status and lauded.

Problem is: the bloke wearing a blouse, pencil skirt, high heels and lipstick but says he's a bloke.

Do we think that is great and to be celebrated?

Thanks for the apology @Signalbox. I think you're right there is misunderstanding here and on twitter.

I think it's because after a few years of talking policy and law we're now hitting on some grey areas around culture and it's harder to measure, quantify and clarify.

I also think it's revealing some underlying differences in political leanings which have always been there but as we 'win' more will become more visible.

I think I've become much more conservative because of this issue. I'm realising that many structures and social contracts have a purpose and we throw them away too quickly.

Others are absolutely liberal all the way with individuals should do whatever they want principle. I think that's where Helen Pluckrose is coming from. I disagree with her but she is consistent.

I'm sorry I was snippy back. I can be a bit of a twat like that.

Well, you were right... it's been a slippery slope 😁.

I'm aware I sound like Mary Whitehouse these days.
I really didn't expect this to happen to me.
But I do think courtesy, decency and standards are important.

But you shame the concept. You make it mockable and low status regarded as a bit pathetic to be bringing your fetish into the public.

But what if that's why they're doing it in the first place?

If they're doing it because part of the thrill is to be humiliated, how is making it mockable going to stop them?

Any reaction, whether it's mocking them, showing disgust or fawning over them, is giving them what they want. I think the only response is to ignore (but they'll probably find that enjoyable as well).

I'm sorry I was snippy back. I can be a bit of a twat like that.

No worries. All is forgiven 😊

What happened there then?

I really don’t know how to tread that line between Mary Whitehouse- who turned out to be right anyway- and changing times.

Clean clothes that cover all necessary areas.

Maybe we could check in with the North Korean chap, see what he has in mind.

Relevant here I think

https://apple.news/AW_59K4M_QYiMLaCGXZdgew

Not sure why I was deleted.

May have been suggesting some men can be creepy.

If we're not talking about using the law or applying societal pressure then what exactly are we talking about?
Just being aware? Cos I'm aware.

Things like this Floisme.

Generally talking about it and pointing out what it is.

I keep going back to the Disney employee wearing the women's costume in the Bibbity Bobbity Boutique.

Lots of women here said: that's fine or great as long as he's not pretending to be a woman. We should encourage this.

Me: it's the same fetish on display.
You're being played.

I strongly resist any attempt to police men's fashion. I strongly support the right of people of both sexes to wear whatever they please. It will dissolve the nonsense that a beardy man in a skirt must be pandered too because he wants us to call him Lulabelle Kisscheeks she/her and lobotomise us into pretending he's a woman when we all know he isn't. If his clothing stops being seen as outlandish or proof of trans-sexuality and becomes commonplace, the validity of his claim weakens.

If men want to present their fetishes out and proud, that's equally fine by me. I'm happy to know who to steer clear of. Above all, it's all so much desperate MeMeMe ME attention seeking, so if clothing freedom means blokes are hanging out in floral skirts chatting about footie or opera or whatever they want, and no one pays attention, this is healthy. This stops the gender cliches from topping biological sex as key signifier for whether you are male or female.

But aren't you then playing into the hands of gender cliche? Like men in Victorian times who thought women who wore trousers were mentally unstable.

Clothes are just clothes. We need to reduce their power to determine sex to zero, No one's sex should ever be determined by clothes.

Clothes aren't just clothes.
They signal all sorts of things. Power, sexuality, wealth, status, creativity, tribes, culture.

If they weren't people wouldn't care so deeply about what they want to wear.
They want to send signals.

The idea that clothing choices are only about comfort or practicality is nonsense.
Almost as nonsensical as the idea that people have an inner need to wear certain clothes.

Our clothing choices are all restrained by the context we live in. No one is choosing to wear Roman togas or crinoline dresses and we'd think they were weird if they did.

But we buy into the idea that men wearing women's clothes is an important self expression.

Is it just coincidence we have lots of men wanting to dress like women and zero wanting to dress like medieval Knights or could there be a reason?

What would be the reason?

I don't think different dress codes for men and women are a gender cliche.

I think they are an abiding example of human drive to signal and code sex differences in culture.
How this is represented over time and in different cultures varies but it's always there.

A culture without gendered dress codes is never going to exist so they'll always be opportunity for men to transgress the norms however many times the goalposts are moved.

@MalagaNights - you make some really interesting points. I agree that clothing is and always will be differentiated to denote the sex of the wearer. But we all know that the signalling and coding of sex via clothing is a constantly shifting thing. High heels and pink clothes used to be the exclusive domain of men. As were trousers. Now heels and pink are seen as ultra feminine and trousers as an entity are entirely neutral.

I think that trying to control men's clothing choices and trying to outlaw certain outfits that are currently female signifiers weakens the argument against self-ID. If self-ID cannot be proved by a dress because the dress is now commonly incorporated into both male and female daywear then one's demand to the right to womanhood will need a more stringent set of criteria to validate it.

And of course loads of men want to dress as knights. That's what cosplay and re-enactment is all about. They do it joyfully at weekends. It's not seen as fetishistic. They don't insist on wearing armour to work and being addressed as Sir Galahad because they know the difference between reality and play.

Good points about the Knights 🤣

That illustrates appropriateness.

I was also thinking: clothing often signals age as well as all those other things. We have codes around age appropriate wear. Again these shift over time, and may become less rigid but they still always exist.

Women my age would have worn quite old lady clothes 50 years ago, but my peers wear more fashionable clothes, but we still wouldn't wear some of the things our daughters are wearing.

Not because there's a law against it but we know
a) those clothes are not made for our middle aged bodies
b) we know everyone would think we looked like twats.

It's the sense of judgement we've lost with men wearing women's clothes in public but it still exists to socially control dress in other situations e.g Knights at work or 50 yr old women in braless crop tops (mostly).