Policing Men's Clothes

[MalagaNights]

There's an interesting debate going on twitter between many of the GC feminists I follow and Sarah Phillimore and Helen Pluckrose.

It seems to hit on some of the themes we've been involved in discussing on here previously. Particularly linked to the man in a dress at Genspect.

https://x.com/SVPhillimore/status/1748983536785190951?s=20

Helen Pluckrose states somewhere that there is a a streak of authoritarianism in GC feminism. With some wanting to control what men can wear.

Sarah and Helen seem to be saying you can't legislate for this which I actually don't think anyone is arguing for. They're arguing with a straw man I think.

But what I think they're missing is the societal shift that has socially accepted men in women's clothes has allowed many men permission to have their fetish publicly celebrated.

We could turn that around with a change in social attitude. E.g many companies have now allowed men to wear the women's uniform at work. They don't have to allow this. We could return to men and women's uniforms including practical options for both.

We could openly discuss and express our discomfort about men who do this is usually sexual, instead of pretending it's just fashion. Everyone used to know this about cross dressing and that's why it was done privately.

Then we hit on the tricky issue how do we discriminate between men who are AGP and men who like exploring fashion?

Helen Pluckrose is arguing it's not usually sexual and if you are uncomfortable deal with your own feelings.

We could ensure that where men still insist on performing feminity we at least don't have to listen to why they're so brave and their 'story' to self discovery, as has been happening in work places.

I actually think the 'it's just clothes' ' let's abolish gender' stance of some feminists has led to this opportunity for men to queer the boundaries and bring their sexual fetish into every day life. I think we're discovering that some of the boundaries we had around the sexes, performed a role which we've thrown away.

I agree with Sarah that we can't legislate for this. But we never had legislation on clothing we just had socially acceptable rules which change over time with common consent.

Anyway, it's very heated over on twitter and I think we've actually reached a point of having to address this issue. How do we deal with men who get a sexual thrill from wearing women's clothes. Once we've all agreed they're men. Then what?

"And are you not at all concerned that a culture where ideas such as decency and propriety (in relation to clothing presumably) are valued, to the point that a person loses respect for flouting those boundaries, would not also risk restricting women’s choices and behaviour as well as men’s?"

Yes I think there's a risk. There's a risk in over correction and reverting to very rigid rules and exclusion of any difference.

I think the risk of chaos and no bounadries vs rigid oppression are both very real. I just think at the moment we're more at risk from the lack of boundaries.

Yes my question is HOW you achieve this? It certainly wouldn’t be an organic cultural shift would it because the organic cultural shift appears to be moving in the other direction.

I think the shift is happneing actually. I think through thigs like:this. discussion! I wasn't thinking this way 5 years ago. Lots of people have engaged, if not agreed , in away they wouldn't have a few ywars ago.
Then culture shisfts through music, film, the convesrtaions people have in the pub, articles get that get written, what gets likes on twitter, shared on SM, discussed on reddit, the language we use. Our ideas get shaped by jouranlists, artists, authors who play with idaeas in the air. Eventually politics catches up. I think there is a shift starting whwre people don't want a sexulaised queer culture and they slowly realise that to have a diffrent culture you have to value other things: not just personal freedom, but also responsility to live up to some higher values.

Sorry for my shit typing I can't spellchecak today!