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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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9
EasternStandard · 11/01/2024 12:40

maltravers · 11/01/2024 12:34

I’m sure he’d like to criminalise women who express GC views if he could.

There are a fair few out there who’d do the same

Fenlandia · 11/01/2024 12:45

Datun · 11/01/2024 11:38

He explained: 'I think that, you know, the sort of culture wars are so awful. We don't really talk about policies, we don't really talk about real issues, or things that are really important.

Lol. Yeah, the complete decimation of women's sport, the state sanctioned sexual assault on women criminals by male police officers and the state approved provision of incarcerated women to male rapists, the disappearance of male free women's rape refuges, and the vilification of women who need them, and the indoctrination and mutilation of children and teenagers.

Not real issues, and not really important (according to a middle-aged man.)

Exactly, that old gambit of 'stop worrying about these trifling issues, we'll look at this when we've fixed BiGgEr IsSuEs'. Heard this so often from men. But the following things are important public and social issues:

  • poor quality healthcare for female specific conditions
  • male violence against women
  • low female participation in physical activity/sport

...And are made harder to tackle by obscuring female-specific language and inclusion policies for men who think they are women.

maltravers · 11/01/2024 12:49

Equal rights for gay men (not so sure about lesbians) have been achieved, but he and others of his ilk like the attention and affirmation from the bros for his activism , so the fight goes on…shame about the mutilated kids, no one cares about the women obviously.

TommyNever · 11/01/2024 12:51

He's too much of an idiot to realise how embarrassing he is.

Sureaseggs44 · 11/01/2024 12:58

snackatack · 11/01/2024 02:25

biologically intersex is a thing.. neither male or female but both (I know its rare.. but it does still happen)

The rest of gender is a social construct.. IMO - people who strive to be 'other' are often kicking out at the social construct as it limits them..

Actually that’s not quite true . Intersex are either male or female but their genitals may not have formed properly.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 11/01/2024 13:07

Helleofabore · 11/01/2024 12:38

It is not as if Cumming is inexperienced at media interviews nor being asked questions around his LGBT activism.

Incoherence can actually be a surprisingly effective communication strategy - if what you want to communicate is 'I'm someone who agrees with you about the right things', rather than communicating actual information, facts or logic. It's similar to Banham statements or astrology in the way it makes the listener create the content.

If you make a lot of quite general, unconnected statements - and say them in a way that suggests they are connected - the listener inserts their own links. If you don't finish your sentences, the listener makes up the end of the sentences and extrapolates what point you making.

And because they have made them up, from their own beliefs, knowledge and biases, these links and points tend to agree with what the listener themselves would say.

It doesn't work on everyone. If you are very interested in the topic so are listening carefully and analysing, or if you have a particularly detailed and informed view on the matter, you are likely to see the holes. If you have an existing antipathy to the speaker then you may do the same filling in process, but fill the gaps with things you disagree with.

But it works on a lot of people a lot of the time.

It's a manipulative strategy that it pays to be aware of. Although it can be tricky sometimes to tell the difference between those who are incoherent to manipulate, and those who are just talking nonsense because their thought processes are complete mess. There's often a certain amount of overlap.

AdamRyan · 11/01/2024 13:12

Anyway engaging on other threads was depressing enough, let alone FWR.
FWR isn't some kind of safe space where only certain types of people get to read/post.
But yes, don't engage with me. I've talked to you enough to know you have no interest at all in anything that isn't your own views

AdamRyan · 11/01/2024 13:14

NoBinturongsHereMate · 11/01/2024 11:39

I'd recommend watching Alan Cummings episode of "Who do you think you are?" Or reading his autobiography. You might find you are more open to his perspective.

Why?

Someone's background may help you understand their motivations for holding a view, but it doesn't affect the truth of their statements.

Because "Someone's background may help you understand their motivations for holding a view"
He is as entitled to his view as anyone else. He didn't say anything factually incorrect. He just has a different point of view to you. That is allowed.

EasternStandard · 11/01/2024 13:14

AdamRyan · 11/01/2024 13:12

Anyway engaging on other threads was depressing enough, let alone FWR.
FWR isn't some kind of safe space where only certain types of people get to read/post.
But yes, don't engage with me. I've talked to you enough to know you have no interest at all in anything that isn't your own views

Great. Feeling is mutual

I expect you won’t quote me again.

I’m fine with talking to other women on here.

literalviolence · 11/01/2024 13:15

AdamRyan · 11/01/2024 11:19

Hmm. At risk of squabbling, I hear a load of right wing waffle around immigration Christianity and gender politics from "the same camp repeatedly". Often factually incorrect.

You are fully entitled to your views, others are fully entitled to challenge them and that isn't "shutting women down".

Cummings is also entitled to his views, to be honest I'm surprised they are that interesting to the DM given, as many have pointed out, he doesn't live here.

The reality of living in the highly sexist society that we do live in is that when powerful men speak, they do silence others. So people with offensive views like his should not be given a platform to expound their hate without some careful consideration (and potentially views from those whom he is doing this to - aka women). But yes, he's entitled to his views and I'm entitled to believe that someone with those sort of views is an offensive, low life narcissist. I am also entitled to believe that we should not celebrate the work of people who don't care about other human beings.

maltravers · 11/01/2024 13:16

We’re in for some hectoring I see. Time for lunch.

AdamRyan · 11/01/2024 13:21

Datun · 11/01/2024 11:43

I'd recommend watching Alan Cummings episode of "Who do you think you are?" Or reading his autobiography. You might find you are more open to his perspective.

I watched it, I really like that show. And mostly the people come across as interesting and nice.

And I'm sure cumming did. I can't really remember.

He comes across as a completely entitled, privileged, blind arse in this article, though.

Yes he does. In no small part down to how the DM edited him.

I don't agree with his perspective on trans issues at all, but I do agree a subset of politicians are using it as a distraction from issues that (in my opinion) are much more pressing. Such as the fact its now taking 8 years for rapists to get to court and barely any are convicted, so rapists can rape with impunity. Or that levels of women dying in childbirth are rising and the majority of hospitals (70%) are not always meeting safety standards.

Feminists are being distracted by increasingly detailed conversations about legal definitions, medical conditions, and all the reasons politicians can't be trusted so we shouldn't vote for any of them. It's really depressing.

maltravers · 11/01/2024 13:27

Feminist can talk about what they want and we can set our own priorities thanks. No instructions needed!

AdamRyan · 11/01/2024 13:27

EasternStandard · 11/01/2024 13:14

Great. Feeling is mutual

I expect you won’t quote me again.

I’m fine with talking to other women on here.

I'll quote who I like ta. Free world and all thar.

Incidentally, why are your shrugging emojis always white toned men? Kinda unusual I think.....most people I know tend to use their own gender and a yellow skin tone....

AdamRyan · 11/01/2024 13:28

maltravers · 11/01/2024 13:27

Feminist can talk about what they want and we can set our own priorities thanks. No instructions needed!

Exactly. As a very strident feminist, I 100% agree!

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 11/01/2024 13:29

Theres no point fast tracking rapists into prison if they get into the female estate and carry on their abuse once inside.

Its funny, ive never heard anyone say we have to stabilise interest rates before we deal with climate change. Its as if multi-tasking ceases to be possible when men want to id as women.

EasternStandard · 11/01/2024 13:31

AdamRyan · 11/01/2024 13:27

I'll quote who I like ta. Free world and all thar.

Incidentally, why are your shrugging emojis always white toned men? Kinda unusual I think.....most people I know tend to use their own gender and a yellow skin tone....

I've talked to you enough

Oh wasn’t that how you felt?

Shame. I was hoping you’d commit to that.

Wtf about emoji use Jesus Christ what people invest themselves in

EasternStandard · 11/01/2024 13:32

What does yellow skin tone mean anyway?

Is this an attempt at racism Confused

AdamRyan · 11/01/2024 13:36

Helleofabore · 11/01/2024 12:21

The meaning of what he is saying might be able to be understood. That doesn't make some of what he is saying any less factual or any less than harmful misinformation.

I suspect that posters are struggling with him telling women that their discussions of policies and fighting for policy changes, and discussions of the issues that effect them as being trivial and a culture war is nothing but misinformation and harmful to women.

Do you think it is accurate or appropriate to frame women's campaigns and parent's campaign the way that he has?

See I don't think he has framed womens concerns like that.
I think he's saying that (some) politicians reducing a complex issue to toilets, children, "men are men and women are women" they are making an oversimplified culture war and doing everyone a disservice in the process.

Which I agree with. Most people don't want an end goal in which it's impossible to be accepted as transgender and everyone must be treated at all times and in all ways as the sex they were born with. In fact lots of feminists argue that kind of thinking leads to stereotyping and oppression of women. But the culture wars force us down that viewpoint, I.e. discussing whether people with CAIS are in fact men.

PaperWalkAndTalk · 11/01/2024 13:36

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EasternStandard · 11/01/2024 13:37

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You could fit a fair few in that last group. Alan and his mates

turbonerd · 11/01/2024 13:39

ArabellaScott · 11/01/2024 07:45

Hmm. If there was a third sex then that sex would be neither male nor female but could be a mix of both? It's a moot point because there is no third sex, but I can see a logic argument for it, depending on whether one defines sex as a kind of grab bag of sexual expressions rather than as two distinct types.

Also - the number of angels on the head of a pin - why does nobody ever consider GIANT PINS?

Precisely.
With a giant pin the size of all the univers, ALL the angels could fit on and we could all be friends.
But would we all be angels?

turbonerd · 11/01/2024 13:40

*universe.

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 11/01/2024 13:44

Most people don'twant an end goal in which it's impossible to be accepted as transgender and everyone must be treated at all times and in all ways as the sex they were born with.

Most people don't understand safeguarding, and abusive people will use this blindspot.

Its a fact that come up here time and time again - knowing sex and age are fundamental for safeguarding. The fact that some/lots/most people dont appreciate that is no reason to allow people to hide their sex.

BackToLurk · 11/01/2024 13:44

AdamRyan · 11/01/2024 13:14

Because "Someone's background may help you understand their motivations for holding a view"
He is as entitled to his view as anyone else. He didn't say anything factually incorrect. He just has a different point of view to you. That is allowed.

'Why do we allow, our Prime Minister actually said that there's only male and female there's no in-between, I mean how dare he say that?

He seems here to be suggesting that saying that there is only male & female is incorrect. If he agreed that there was only male & female why would he want to disallow people from saying that? Do you consider saying there is only male and female not to be 'factually' correct?