Telegraph: Parents who refuse children gender change face seven years in jail in Scotland

[ResisterRex]

What to say? They'll stop at nothing. Women and children, and parents are just cannon fodder. Who cares if they get hurt.

For shame.

"Parents who refuse to allow their children to change gender would face up to seven years in jail under SNP plans to ban “conversion therapy”.
Proposals published on Tuesday state that actions designed to “change or suppress” another individual’s gender identity, causing them physical or psychological harm, would become illegal under the radical law.
SNP ministers acknowledged that so-called conversion practices often took place in a “family setting”, raising the prospect that parents could be criminalisedd_ if they refuse to go along with their child’s declaration that they are transgender.
Stopping someone from “dressing in a way that reflects their sexual orientation or gender identity” was put forward as an example of an action that would become illegal, even if a parent believed they were acting in a child’s best interests.
A consultation states that alongside new criminal sanctions, preemptive civil orders could be obtained against parents or religious leaders, even where conversion practices had not yet taken place.
The plans are the latest controversial measure put forward by the SNPP_. Critics argue the proposals would have a devastating impact on freedom of speech, privacy and family life in Scotland.
Religious campaigners have vowed to fight the ban in the courts.
“We have grave concerns that these plans will criminalise loving parents, who could face years in jail simply for refusing to sign up to the gender ideology cult,” Marion Calder, a director at the campaign group For Women Scotlandd_, said.
“They will also hand activists and social workers unprecedented powers to meddle in family life, while having a chilling impact on therapists and counsellors.
“If the SNP and Greens insist on pushing this through, it is likely to go the same way as the toxic self-ID and named person laws and be blocked in the courts.”"

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/01/09/parents-refuse-child-gender-change-jail-snp-conversion-ban/

Odd how you are reading 'concessionary treatment is temporarily applied at patient's repeated and consistent request after multi-stage assessment process in lieu of more drastic treatment; turns out to be successful as a temporary measure' as 'debunking' its suitability.

I was referring to this as the debunking of the 'buying time' theory:

...previous research suggested all young people who took blockers went on to take cross-sex hormones - the next stage towards transitioning to the opposite gender.

The Tavistock's newly published findings appear to confirm this, with 43 out of 44 participants - or 98% - choosing to start treatment with cross-sex hormones.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55282113

So...staff were indeed able to correctly identify the portion of young people who expressed a consistent sense of gender incongruence and would continue to do so into adulthood during the initial assessment phase with a 98% success rate?

This is a bad thing...how, exactly? Surely the problem would be if this percentage was extremely low. That would imply that there were problems with the initial assessment phase?

Butters and the Scottish government might both do well to read some of the evidence:

https://statsforgender.org/medical-transition/

So many problems arising from indeterminate and vague definitions.

Saw it with some work training where ‘reassignment’ became something else entirely. Very likely the opposite of what the person writing the legislation intended.

In any event. Really, this is all about control.

You will do as I tell you. I am the final arbiter of all values. Married with an authoritarian state that can’t resist using the power of the state to impose control reaching deep into family relations.

Ah yes this is the site that claims only people in their thirties were treated prior to the Dutch Protocol starting.

Of course, good job no 'trans' child ever has multiple siblings who would also be impacted by both their parents being imprisoned, all because those parents had actually plowed through all the medical evidence and made an informed judgement about how to proceed.

Suppose the teenage siblings also didn't believe that their brother was now actually their 'sister' what with having grown up with them and seen what they were like... Prison/YOI on the cards for them too? The youngest in our family was 8 at the time so not sure how she'd have coped.

What about if the grandparents and aunties and uncles all agreed that leaning in with love and attention (and financially supporting a few thousand pounds of regular therapy) was probably a better strategy than encouraging the oldest grandchild in the belief that getting their dick cut off would resolve their ADD/ASD issues. Off to jail too?

I can see this has been really thought through...

This thread is not about the rights and wrongs of medical transition, it is about imprisoning parents for not enabling it. There are a LOT of other groundhog day ones on transition that can be added to.

When children are not kept in a child-like state and go through a normal puberty, it has been observed that over 80% of them are no longer gender dysphoric as adults. For most children, puberty is the cure for gender dysphoria.

What this experiment with puberty blockers suggests is that by keeping these children in a child-like state by preventing puberty stops them from going through this process which allows them to come to terms with their actual sex.

At the same time this is damaging their health in other ways, such as affecting bone growth leading to early osteoporosis. It also means that should they be one of the small percentage who persist in their trans identity, the genital surgery that males might want as adults will be more difficult (as happened to Jazz Jennings and Jackie Green).

Even some trans identifying adults who work in the field of trans surgery (Marci Bowers) are now saying that this is not the right solution for children.

"An observation that I had," said Bowers, "every single child who was, or adolescent, who was truly blocked at Tanner stage 2," which is the beginning of physical development, when hormones begin their work of advancing a child to adulthood, "has never experienced orgasm. I mean, it's really about zero."

Yes, there are a lot of other threads, but there are probably some people reading this thread who aren't very knowledgeable about these issues. They might be wondering what's wrong with a child medically transitioning, since Mermaids, Stonewall et al have been saying that it's a fantastic thing to do, and some schools, medical professionals and politicians are encouraging it as well. I'm posting for the benefit of those people.

It's linked to this thread because if you believe that medicating these children is a positive thing to do, you might also believe that punishing their parents for preventing it is the right strategy.

Butterfly, there is no way you can be objective on this.

Not every child who 'questions their gender' will benefit from going through puberty blockade or cross-sex hormones or surgery. These things are harmful in themselves, so their use should face substantial barriers, and not just be a case of 'but the patient insisted'.

This is an actually terrifying idea. How can any political party want to criminalise parents for not believing in gender identity beliefs? What about other religious or political or cult beliefs? Why just this one?

What about Forstater judgement? Surely this means such a cruel and stupid idea can’t go anywhere legally? The SNP is absolutely ruining its own credibility by trying to push this, but that happened some time ago.

It's sinister that the SNP keep trying to isolate children from their parents. Imagine how vulnerable a young child will be to predators if they decide they want to 'transition'. Imagine how vulnerable a young child will be to predators if their parents are imprisoned for 7 years for trying to protect them from predators. It's a win win for the predators.

If the Nolan principles of public life were adhered to - especially the first 3, then none of this stuff would be anywhere near children. The deeply self-interested adults using children for their own validation would have been immediately booted out of education, charities, politics and anywhere that children congregate.
Society has let children down by enabling these people to break down safeguarding, ethical child healthcare and education.

"1 Selflessness:
Holders of public office should act solely in terms of the public interest.
2 Integrity
Holders of public office must avoid placing themselves under any obligation to people or organisations that might try inappropriately to influence them in their work. They should not act or take decisions in order to gain financial or other material benefits for themselves, their family, or their friends. They must declare and resolve any interests and relationships.
3 Objectivity
Holders of public office must act and take decisions impartially, fairly and on merit, using the best evidence and without discrimination or bias.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-7-principles-of-public-life/the-7-principles-of-public-life--2

The STV news on this last night was atrocious (even worse than usual). It was like a child reporting. There was a short video of a young guy man reporting how his church had tried to exsorcise his gayness from him. There was mention of the bill being welcomed by LGBT groups and a short clip from a teacher I think representing religious schools concerns although it wasn't hugely clear as it was without context.

Absolutely no mention of parents possibly being prosecuted for not agreeing with transitioning a child's gender. Gender identity mentioned only secondary to homosexuality.
The immediate question that came to mind is that if conversion therapy of people who are gay is such a huge issue all these last 50 years (yes it I know it happened before) where has stonewall been in this? Where is the huge campaign about it? Where are all these gay folks that are seeking therapy in the NHS and being told they're wrong? I get that many religions still hold it as a sin as they hold many other things as sins and therfore people disengage from the religion.
As has been discussed its the gender identity which has not to be questioned, we know this but dear God the lying by omitting to mention the other side by the media is scary. I can see the general population watching the news going gosh I didn't think that still happened, dreadful and be happy to support the bill.
I find it terrifying especially with regards to my hugely vulnerable and autistic daughter. The schools are all complicit in the lie as they're terrified to not comply with any child's wishes. I don't really have a point just adding my voice to the dissent.

Yes.

But as we know, this thread will now cease to be of any use because it will just turn into the same people arguing with the same poster, for pages and pages, using the same arguments made on many other threads.

Which has effectively stopped the thread, which is probably the intent.

One could possibly use the scroll button.

argaghghgahg

So, Scotgov.

Define 'gender identity'.

They also need to describe what "dressing in a way that reflects their sexual orientation or gender identity" means.

Are they going to produce a document which describes which items of clothing or styles of dress go with which sexual orientations and gender identities?

Would it make sense if any other phrase was used instead of "gender identity"?

Parents to be imprisoned for 7 years for refusing to accept their child's new shoes/hair colour/dodgy boyfriend/truancy. Parents to be imprisoned for 7 years for refusing to let their child stay out until midnight/ride a bike without lights/never change their bedsheets? No.

I don’t even get what that phrase means

But yeh what exactly are they referring to - hair styles, clothing styles

We could ensure children are left free to look different rather than this totalitarian, extreme response

Adults who are neck deep in this are entirely culpable

"dressing in a way that reflects their sexual orientation or gender identity"

A child dressing in a way that reflects sexual orientation sounds like an automatic safeguarding referral to me, tbh.

Madness

It's sinister that the SNP keep trying to isolate children from their parents.

It really is. It’s a tactic of authoritarian governments on both left and right. Shocking that people are still voting for them.