Zoe Williams -

[Sizzlysausage]

Kate doesn’t want Prince George to go to Eton – and for once I agree with her | Zoe Williams | The Guardian

Sorry if there is another thread on this article by Zoe Williams which is rather extraordinary on a number of counts, but especially confusing is the following:

"Which isn’t to say that nothing good came of it – my experience of an all-girls’ school, followed by twice as long as a trustee of a prison charity, informed a lot of my politics, including why I became a transgender ally. Before I had thought seriously about trans rights, and the immeasurable preciousness of any human being with the courage to live their most meaningful and truthful life, I thought: “Wait, are you saying all-female spaces are kinder? Purer? Inherently less violent? More supportive? Are you joking? Are you out of your mind?”"

I think I might be struggling with my comprehension today - but I don't think gender critical feminists are necessarily saying all-female spaces are kinder or purer - although, yes, almost certainly inherently less violent. It seems like a conflation of different points flung together to construct a straw man argument and entirely misunderstanding safeguarding as a concept in the process. Is this deliberate? Or is she not able to see this? Baffling.

Well you see the same instinct here, women will defend men to the hilt. There was a thread yesterday evening about men's entitlement to claim space in public regardless of the effect on other people, and so many posters were straight out of the gate saying that women are as bad or worse. It's so interesting to see.

There’s another thread going about the film ‘Poor Things’ on this board. Interesting to see ZW’s review compared to the others. It’s everything you’d expect. Contrast it to Ann Lee’s review (who actually read the book the film was based on and so spots the major flaw in the film) and Viv Groskop’s review.
Unfortunately for me, I have no respect for zw, but I agree with her review.

Don't worry, Margot would never dream of being so déclassée.

Along with the halo polishing, I suspect there may be a more commercial element at play here - ZW can position herself as the Katie Hopkins of the GI Left and take some of the market Peter Tatchell currently gets to himself. Hence the “why doesn’t woman’s hour speak to some pro trans speakers? (Hint: Meeeee!)

I agree with Zoe that female spaces are not always kinder: I was bullied all the way through my time at an all-girls Primary School. And girls can be vicious in messing with someone’s mental health and self-esteem.

However, I disagree wholeheartedly with Zoe that this fact means we should abandon single-sex spaces because even though I was still bullied in a mixed-sex Secondary School by girls, the boys who bullied me also sexually assaulted me. Those boys used that extra ability to damage someone that the girls didn’t. So, on the whole, I’d have preferred to spend my teenage years in a female environment - I don’t think I would have been much happier but I would have been safer.

I have no respect for women like Zoe who are happy to place other women and girls in danger just to uphold their own cool, liberal credentials.

So, on the whole, I’d have preferred to spend my teenage years in a female environment - I don’t think I would have been much happier but I would have been safer.

Exactly. My experience of being in mixed schools is of being constantly harassed and bullied sexually - even in primary school.

Of course, this is why we have single-sex spaces in the first place. It's why in the nineteenth century, for example, it was mandated that we have separate prisons for men and women, a practice that is adopted all over the world.

Sadly, I've noticed a bit of a link between women who went to single-sex private secondary schools and trans activism. I believe it's because they unthinkingly compare their single-sex secondary school (the age where we are, male and female alike, at our worst!) to their mixed-sex uni cohort, and then conclude that the presence of males was the most important civilising factor, rather than all the students' increased age. (Another civilising factor on university students is that they're at an institution they've chosen to attend, studying subjects they've chosen...)

Honestly, if you compared the 14-15 year old female bullies I knew to any of the 18-year-old lads I would later share A-levels with, then the boys were much kinder and more considerate. They weren't born like that; they just grew up! Some of them would have been complete arseholes as little as four years earlier. The relevant comparator (if I'm using that word correctly) of a 14-15 year old female bully is a male bully of the same age!

@NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision - that's an interesting point. Going slightly off topic but I do feel that part of the problem with school is that pupils are always lumped in with other pupils of the same age. DC1 was the pastoral prefect in a mixed boarding school and said that pupils tended to complain about bullying/bad behaviour within their year rather than within their (mixed age but single sex) houses. So the girl who was basically ostracized and ignored by her whole year was happy in her house where older girls would stop and chat if she was on her own and younger girls would like it when she gave them attention.

Exactly. My experience of being in mixed schools is of being constantly harassed and bullied sexually - even in primary school.

This.

And girls in a single sex school will presumably have largely missed the formative experiences of low level sexual harassment, teenage boys pushing boundaries, and worse, that most girls encounter.

“Right now, you are covering your suprasternal notch,” says Navarro as our video call starts. Protecting my neck, in other words, “which is because there’s a man right in front of you”. That makes me chortle, because I love men.

Zoe is desperate to let us know she loves men. She also conflates 'fear' with 'dislike', which is perhaps telling.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2024/jan/24/how-to-spot-a-liar-10-essential-tells-from-random-laughter-to-copycat-gestures

It's interesting about single sex schools.

I went to a private girls school and was bullied more or less all the way through. I used to think a mixed school would have been better.

I recently had a chat about school days with someone who went to a mixed school and her experience was so radically different to mine I had to rethink. Boys rating the girls breast size and attractiveness, exposure to porn, a general view that boys were better, minimal girls doing maths and science.

Whereas at my school the culture was that girls can do anything and there were more girls doing maths and science than humanities. Plus being ASD, I'd have been bullied wherever I was.

I think it's easy to have an idealized view of mixed sex if you had a crap time at a girls school but it isn't based in reality.

Everyone I know who went to a single sex school wished they'd gone to a mixed sex school.

My school was shit, IDK if that was anything to do with it being mixed sex, though.

There will be other factors coming into play - i.e. single sex schools are private schools (as far as I'm aware?) so different demographics.

Not always private, but often selective.

I went to a single sex school and I found it good. I wasn't bullied and I didn't see any bullying (which doesn't mean that it didn't happen, I wasn't everywhere all the time). One thing I appreciate now that I didn't understand at the time was that I had zero awareness of girls not being allowed/able/encouraged to do everything, maths, physics, home economics, sport...

I was at an all girls state secondary school back in the day. No bullying I was aware of and I was not a cool
kid so I think I might have seen it, or it must have been low key and not widely visible. Lots of girls doing STEM subjects - why wouldn’t we?

One rape a day in UK schools (a few years ago before the mixed sex loos nonsense really toook off, doubt it's improved). I think we can be pretty confident that single sex girls schools will be underrepresented in those stats.

And YY to the constant sexisim. My school actually wasn't too bad - all the 'craft' subjects were done on rotation by everyone, so half a term.of cookery would be followed by half a term of metalwork. But while the overall setup was egalitarian, the expectations of individual teachers were not. I was one of a very small number of girls doing A-level physics, and 1 of the 2 teachers for that didn't teach girls. At all. Never spoke to us directly, never asked us questions in class, would ignore ones we asked if possible, didn't come near our table. He'd mark handed in work, but that was it; during lessons the boys got all his attention.

The one time I had an actual conversation with him was when we'd both arrived early for a lesson and he attempted to make smalltalk by asking whether the book I was reading was 'a romance'. The reply of 'No, it's a strategic analysis of the battle of Jutland.' rather flummoxed him.

There are quite a lot of selective state schools, as Nobin said, that are single-sex. But there are also a few single-sex comprehensives - or, rather, they used to be comprehensives, they're probably academies now.

You'll find that in areas with substantial Muslim populations there's often a preference for single-sex schools.

And girls in a single sex school will presumably have largely missed the formative experiences of low level sexual harassment, teenage boys pushing boundaries, and worse, that most girls encounter.

Exactly. I'd normally consider that a good thing, but the naivety that it's led to makes me pause.

For example, I presume Williams is blase about mixed-sex cubicles in fitting rooms in clothes shops. I'm not, and one of the reasons I'm not is because I remember the full range of behaviour from teenage boys, from the nice ones, to the ones who... were not. Some of them absolutely would have deliberately pulled back the curtain of a girl or woman changing in an adjacent cubicle. These days, they'd stick camera phones over the top.

Thanks - I didn't realise there were single sex comps.

None in Scotland anymore, after a bit of googling. The last one was a Catholic school, has admitted boys in the past few years.

'the majority of single-sex state schools in Scotland closed or were amalgamated in the 1970s and 80s'

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/nov/28/scotlands-last-all-girls-state-school-to-admit-boys-after-long-dispute

Also I feel I have to put a word in for our STEM teachers who were excellent at encouraging girls to pursue maths/science and even PE, although some of us had a strong allergic reaction to the latter.

Exactly my experience, with the addition that at my school in the 1970s when I was first there the only male members of staff were the Bursar and the janitor, neither of whom had anything to do with the girls. Every teacher in the school was a woman and a graduate in her subject, or the equivalent in the case of the Art, Music, PE and Domestic Science staff. Later on there were two male science teachers, but it was still a very female-led and dominated environment. I'm glad to have had that experience.

Definitely not the case that single sex schools are predominantly private. There are 5 single sex state schools near me. One is selective. 3 are community schools (ie. not academies), 1 a free school (academy).

I went to a single-sex comp. Huge relief. Some of the boys at my primary school were pretty unpleasant, and went on to do pretty unpleasant things as adults. It was a happy atmosphere and I'd choose the same again.