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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Zoe Williams -

208 replies

Sizzlysausage · 09/01/2024 13:46

Kate doesn’t want Prince George to go to Eton – and for once I agree with her | Zoe Williams | The Guardian

Sorry if there is another thread on this article by Zoe Williams which is rather extraordinary on a number of counts, but especially confusing is the following:

"Which isn’t to say that nothing good came of it – my experience of an all-girls’ school, followed by twice as long as a trustee of a prison charity, informed a lot of my politics, including why I became a transgender ally. Before I had thought seriously about trans rights, and the immeasurable preciousness of any human being with the courage to live their most meaningful and truthful life, I thought: “Wait, are you saying all-female spaces are kinder? Purer? Inherently less violent? More supportive? Are you joking? Are you out of your mind?”"

I think I might be struggling with my comprehension today - but I don't think gender critical feminists are necessarily saying all-female spaces are kinder or purer - although, yes, almost certainly inherently less violent. It seems like a conflation of different points flung together to construct a straw man argument and entirely misunderstanding safeguarding as a concept in the process. Is this deliberate? Or is she not able to see this? Baffling.

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Floisme · 25/01/2024 22:53

RebelliousCow · 25/01/2024 13:39

I take it Zoe Williams was one of the signatories to the Guardian staff letter damning Suzanne Moore?

To be fair, I don't think she was. I remember looking for her name and not seeing it.
I do remember her telling Suzanne Moore to fuck off on Twitter though although she (ZW) then deleted it I think.

RebelliousCow · 26/01/2024 07:47

What is astounding is how fereciously people such as Zoe Williams respond when anyone persists in critiquing genderism. There is no reasoning, only emotional outburts and personal comment. What is it that captures people in this way and makes them behave like that? What is it they are defending?

I'm trying to think of possible scenarios in which I might react similarly - and if I can what would it be that is motovating me; moving me?

i know people can behave badly on twiitter because they post spontaneously - but having seen the clip above where Zoe Williams defends males in women's sports suggests she is really determined to argue the case ( even if her arguments are essentially faulty)

GothConversionTherapy · 26/01/2024 07:56

@RebelliousCow Susceptibility to propaganda maybe

BezMills · 26/01/2024 08:11

yeah I don't know how anyone can defend males in female sports. There is nothing stopping a man sticking on a female swimsuit and swimming in the male race, where he belongs. How awesome would that be? Instead of pretending he's female and using actual female athletes and female athletics to validate that?

WinterLobelia · 26/01/2024 08:22

I can't seem to see what Sharron Davies replied (Don't have twitter). Can anyone enlighten me? I only saw ZW's stupid comment(s).

RebelliousCow · 26/01/2024 08:26

I've realised, gradually over the years, that some people are just not intellectual ( think rationally and with freedom of enquiry); they are more emotional thinkers. They process information through emotional channels and so are particularly susceptible to holding views which create emotional comfort.

You can be bright without being intellectual. I suspect that Williams belonged to the popular 'in girl' group at school, and could be mean and catty. She gets by through innate confidence, but is also argumentative. She like to keep up with the lingo and attitudes of those younger than her to show how cool she is

Her fairly shallow journalism is a reflection of her temperament, her mind set and her abilities.

groveparker0 · 26/01/2024 08:39

I am not a fan of Zoe Williams though I used to be, but I am a fan of accuracy so I feel obliged to point out that she is the same age as me (50).

I was still at school during the 1992 general election so I doubt ZW was writing for the Guardian then, and I am absolutely positive she wasn't writing about shagging her way round Soho in the 1980s.

That's all. As you were.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 26/01/2024 08:49

RebelliousCow · 26/01/2024 08:26

I've realised, gradually over the years, that some people are just not intellectual ( think rationally and with freedom of enquiry); they are more emotional thinkers. They process information through emotional channels and so are particularly susceptible to holding views which create emotional comfort.

You can be bright without being intellectual. I suspect that Williams belonged to the popular 'in girl' group at school, and could be mean and catty. She gets by through innate confidence, but is also argumentative. She like to keep up with the lingo and attitudes of those younger than her to show how cool she is

Her fairly shallow journalism is a reflection of her temperament, her mind set and her abilities.

Maybe so, but I thought the rigorous admissions interview and tutorial system at Oxford was designed to ensure only genuinely intellectual people would earn an Oxford degree? ZW has a degree in history from Oxford. I will concede that decades ago a private education made it far more likely you'd get in.

GothConversionTherapy · 26/01/2024 08:52

I know people who went to Oxford who are shockingly ignorant, and who were accepted via the usual channels ie not some aristocrat who bought their way in.

They just don't engage their brain outside of academic settings perhaps. And why would they, if everything in their life is going well for them ? Some people are just too selfish to give brain space to empathy or the greater good.

MrsTwatInAHat · 26/01/2024 09:03

What is it that captures people in this way and makes them behave like that? What is it they are defending?

I think they’re defending their self-image as a good person, which unfortunately has been bolstered by believing gender ideology is real, and accepting the false equivalence with homosexuality. No one modern, fair-minded and liberal wants to be homophobic and these middle class, often female genderism pushers have been convinced that the TQ+ really is just like being gay. Then it’s too late for the obvious dangers of self-ID, the harms of affirming confused young people etc to be allowed to be entertained. They must be lies spouted by mean transphobic terfs who just want an excuse to hate on trans people.

Looking too closely at the facts would threaten this edifice that gives people like Zoe a sense of their own moral rectitude and a degree of protection from their guilt about being white, middle class, privately educated etc. It’s ultimately a selfish motive IMO but people like this probably don’t see it that way. It’s about being a Nice Person and batting away anything that threatens that, even verifiable reality.

i went to Oxford around the same time as Zoe - bit earlier. I didn’t know her, though I did know Kath Viner who absolutely suffers from the same thing IMO. It certainly seemed very rigorous and demanding of clear thought processes in the application process, but I definitely met a lot of hard-of-thinking people there! (Among some very brilliant people too)

MrsTwatInAHat · 26/01/2024 09:09

And I remember a very old, and old-school, tutor very unprofessionally bemoaning another student’s stupidity to me! And calling him an “intellectual jellyfish” and wondering how he got in! Not in front of the other student, but still he’d probably be sacked these days. But the guy he was talking about definitely was thick as mince and I don’t know how he got in either. It’s not true that Oxford students are all bright and it wasn’t then either.

DameMaud · 26/01/2024 09:10

https://gurwinder.substack.com/p/why-smart-people-hold-stupid-beliefs

From this linked article. Seems pertinent to this discussion:

What this means is that, while unintelligent people are more easily misled by other people, intelligent people are more easily misled by themselves. They’re better at convincing themselves of things they want to believe rather than things that are actually true. This is why intelligent people tend to have stronger ideological biases; being better at reasoning makes them better at rationalizing.

Why Smart People Believe Stupid Things

Intelligence is not rationality

https://gurwinder.substack.com/p/why-smart-people-hold-stupid-beliefs

RethinkingLife · 26/01/2024 09:12

I think they’re defending their self-image as a good person

I suspect it's something akin to this discussion about why judges facilitate so much of the nonsense we see in courts. E.g., when men transition just before sentencing for (mostly) sex-involved crimes or the strictures of the Equal Treatment Bend Book.

I used to be at the bar and have spoken to a number of judges about this. It’s a unmitigated fucking disaster.

The vast majority of judges are decent men. They want to do the right thing. They also tend to be MC, white and privileged with little to no understanding of the trans issues raging.

It’s a dangerous combination. They don’t want to say or do the wrong thing so they lap up the training given by lobby groups, legitimately believing in what they’re told and genuinely fearing that they might actually be bigots when they find this stuff doesn’t make sense.

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a4379444-Maya-back-in-court-tomorrow-20th-Oct?msgid=111785546

MrsTwatInAHat · 26/01/2024 09:26

I mean the “the women beat the men at sport and that’s why women’s sports were separated/closed down” argument is so flabbergastingly specious, but lots of people spout it. My trans relative goes on about it on social media and they all sit there agreeing with this simply made-up bollocks.

it’s like creationism - despite it being belief-based, they pretend it’s supported by evidence, then make up or twist “facts’ to support it. If you have to pretend women in general have better sporting results than men to support your position, it should be time to rethink your position but people like this need to cling to their beliefs so they’ll do anything to block reality creeping in.

ScribblingPixie · 26/01/2024 09:30

What is astounding is how ferociously people such as Zoe Williams respond when anyone persists in critiquing genderism.

I think that's her general modus operandi. I read someone criticise the detail of one of her columns on Twitter, and she just came back with, basically, I presume you're too stupid to understand what I wrote. It seems as if her thing is 'hot takes' on issues without any substance, and then she uses aggression to discourage people from actually examining what she says.

Tinysoxxx · 26/01/2024 09:48

There’s another thread going about the film ‘Poor Things’ on this board. Interesting to see ZW’s review compared to the others. It’s everything you’d expect. Contrast it to Ann Lee’s review (who actually read the book the film was based on and so spots the major flaw in the film) and Viv Groskop’s review.

songaboutjam · 26/01/2024 10:02

RebelliousCow · 26/01/2024 07:47

What is astounding is how fereciously people such as Zoe Williams respond when anyone persists in critiquing genderism. There is no reasoning, only emotional outburts and personal comment. What is it that captures people in this way and makes them behave like that? What is it they are defending?

I'm trying to think of possible scenarios in which I might react similarly - and if I can what would it be that is motovating me; moving me?

i know people can behave badly on twiitter because they post spontaneously - but having seen the clip above where Zoe Williams defends males in women's sports suggests she is really determined to argue the case ( even if her arguments are essentially faulty)

Most people have a natural inclination towards fairness and inclusion, even if it manifests differently in the political approaches we take. It's easy for a neutral party to take the TRA position, because the overall message is simple and positive. Let these poor suffering people be treated well.

And if you take that viewpoint, it's difficult to understand why anyone wouldn't go along with this. Do those TERF-y feminists want to make this minority's lives difficult? Can't they just compromise, just a little? Surely there's a simple way to keep everyone happy, if only those opposed cooperated. But the TERF-y feminists continue to oppose, so they're obviously doing this because they lack compassion.

But if you try and dig deeper, the TRA position falls apart. And on some level the TRAs know this. They believe trans people's well being and even their very lives depend on them winning the argument, but they can't win it. And so they panic under this pressure, and their panic becomes emotional outbursts and personal attacks. They don't quite understand why they seem to be losing the argument, because it's always a good thing to want people not to suffer. Surely anyone who opposes alleviating suffering is a bad person? Maybe if the "anti trans" people have a point, it means those who seemingly lack empathy for e.g. refugees, the homeless, benefits claimants, have legitimate counter-arguments that aren't predicated on being horrible human beings. Or maybe humanity is really that cold and evil. Neither realisation is particularly appealing for hopeful progressive types who dream of a unified Star Trek future.

For more middle class people like Zoe Williams, I think there's an additional resentment of privilege. If you're white or straight, you have majority privilege. There are others on your team who are like you and have your back, and you have a certain social influence over the minority who aren't like you because they need the rest of you for allies. But if you're posh, you have minority privilege, and you can't reconcile your politics with your background. Worse still, your parents couldn't help being straight or white. But they could help sending you to private school. Note how resentful the linked article sounds; she would never make such a terrible choice, it doesn't really matter that she was privately educated because she had such an awful time. It's implicitly her parents' fault.

Furthermore, I think some left-wing people from very privileged backgrounds also have an unconscious saviour complex. Many have always been divided from the working and lower-middle classes in some way. They haven't had to work long hours in smelly factories or scrub poo off a floor for minimum wage. They might see what life is like for the common oiks, but they don't fully get it. Nor do they truly understand why those common oiks might reject policies and ideologies that, from the privileged outside perspective, would improve their lives and make them better people. Maybe they're just uneducated. And so education becomes the focus, the mission, the passion.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/01/2024 10:04

Furthermore, I think some left-wing people from very privileged backgrounds also have an unconscious saviour complex. Many have always been divided from the working and lower-middle classes in some way. They haven't had to work long hours in smelly factories or scrub poo off a floor for minimum wage. They might see what life is like for the common oiks, but they don't fully get it. Nor do they truly understand why those common oiks might reject policies and ideologies that, from the privileged outside perspective, would improve their lives and make them better people. Maybe they're just uneducated. And so education becomes the focus, the mission, the passion.

YY.

RoyalCorgi · 26/01/2024 10:05

Maybe so, but I thought the rigorous admissions interview and tutorial system at Oxford was designed to ensure only genuinely intellectual people would earn an Oxford degree? ZW has a degree in history from Oxford. I will concede that decades ago a private education made it far more likely you'd get in.

If Oxford was only admitting in genuinely intellectual people, they wouldn't accept such a high proportion of people from Eton and other major public schools. Those students turn up at the Oxford interview having been prepared for years how to answer those kinds of questions and exuding the superficial polish that seems to appeal to Oxford admissions tutors.

It seems to me that if Oxford academics applied their own much-touted critical thinking skills to the problem, they'd realise it was statistically impossible that so many of the country's brightest people had ended up at Eton.

Catabogus · 26/01/2024 10:10

RoyalCorgi · 26/01/2024 10:05

Maybe so, but I thought the rigorous admissions interview and tutorial system at Oxford was designed to ensure only genuinely intellectual people would earn an Oxford degree? ZW has a degree in history from Oxford. I will concede that decades ago a private education made it far more likely you'd get in.

If Oxford was only admitting in genuinely intellectual people, they wouldn't accept such a high proportion of people from Eton and other major public schools. Those students turn up at the Oxford interview having been prepared for years how to answer those kinds of questions and exuding the superficial polish that seems to appeal to Oxford admissions tutors.

It seems to me that if Oxford academics applied their own much-touted critical thinking skills to the problem, they'd realise it was statistically impossible that so many of the country's brightest people had ended up at Eton.

I know plenty of seemingly very intelligent people (including Oxbridge educated, heck, even current Oxbridge faculty!) who are fully signed up to gender ideology. It is deeply baffling to me.

Having said that, ZW has never struck me as a very deep thinker and I’m surprised to hear she has a History degree from Oxford. I used to skip her pontifications in the Graun 15 years ago as they never seemed very well considered. Lots of weird logical leaps, overstated claims and non sequiturs.

Solrock · 26/01/2024 10:44

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 26/01/2024 08:49

Maybe so, but I thought the rigorous admissions interview and tutorial system at Oxford was designed to ensure only genuinely intellectual people would earn an Oxford degree? ZW has a degree in history from Oxford. I will concede that decades ago a private education made it far more likely you'd get in.

Education (and to a great extent the idea of intelligence) has become very much a performative process. So, you get taught in school how to perform English Literature, or History, or whatever, and then go on to university to perform as an undergraduate, and so on. It's a skill in itself, but people who are good at performing intellect do not necessarily have the intellectual agility to formulate and assimilate new ideas, or look outside of their performed space.

People who are good at performing intelligence normally have some intellectual skills, but they don't always go together, and some remarkably stupid people can get far in life whilst persuading others that they are intellectually gifted.

RebelliousCow · 26/01/2024 11:46

songaboutjam · 26/01/2024 10:02

Most people have a natural inclination towards fairness and inclusion, even if it manifests differently in the political approaches we take. It's easy for a neutral party to take the TRA position, because the overall message is simple and positive. Let these poor suffering people be treated well.

And if you take that viewpoint, it's difficult to understand why anyone wouldn't go along with this. Do those TERF-y feminists want to make this minority's lives difficult? Can't they just compromise, just a little? Surely there's a simple way to keep everyone happy, if only those opposed cooperated. But the TERF-y feminists continue to oppose, so they're obviously doing this because they lack compassion.

But if you try and dig deeper, the TRA position falls apart. And on some level the TRAs know this. They believe trans people's well being and even their very lives depend on them winning the argument, but they can't win it. And so they panic under this pressure, and their panic becomes emotional outbursts and personal attacks. They don't quite understand why they seem to be losing the argument, because it's always a good thing to want people not to suffer. Surely anyone who opposes alleviating suffering is a bad person? Maybe if the "anti trans" people have a point, it means those who seemingly lack empathy for e.g. refugees, the homeless, benefits claimants, have legitimate counter-arguments that aren't predicated on being horrible human beings. Or maybe humanity is really that cold and evil. Neither realisation is particularly appealing for hopeful progressive types who dream of a unified Star Trek future.

For more middle class people like Zoe Williams, I think there's an additional resentment of privilege. If you're white or straight, you have majority privilege. There are others on your team who are like you and have your back, and you have a certain social influence over the minority who aren't like you because they need the rest of you for allies. But if you're posh, you have minority privilege, and you can't reconcile your politics with your background. Worse still, your parents couldn't help being straight or white. But they could help sending you to private school. Note how resentful the linked article sounds; she would never make such a terrible choice, it doesn't really matter that she was privately educated because she had such an awful time. It's implicitly her parents' fault.

Furthermore, I think some left-wing people from very privileged backgrounds also have an unconscious saviour complex. Many have always been divided from the working and lower-middle classes in some way. They haven't had to work long hours in smelly factories or scrub poo off a floor for minimum wage. They might see what life is like for the common oiks, but they don't fully get it. Nor do they truly understand why those common oiks might reject policies and ideologies that, from the privileged outside perspective, would improve their lives and make them better people. Maybe they're just uneducated. And so education becomes the focus, the mission, the passion.

That last paragraph is particularly interesting, because if you look at her twitter feed ( I think it is called a " pinned tweet?" ( I'm not a twitter user) it is a quote about " Why are rich people are obsessed about poor people eating potatoes".

Are they?

RebelliousCow · 26/01/2024 11:53

Solrock · 26/01/2024 10:44

Education (and to a great extent the idea of intelligence) has become very much a performative process. So, you get taught in school how to perform English Literature, or History, or whatever, and then go on to university to perform as an undergraduate, and so on. It's a skill in itself, but people who are good at performing intellect do not necessarily have the intellectual agility to formulate and assimilate new ideas, or look outside of their performed space.

People who are good at performing intelligence normally have some intellectual skills, but they don't always go together, and some remarkably stupid people can get far in life whilst persuading others that they are intellectually gifted.

Yes, intelligence is about being able to make connections between one type of thing and another; be adaptable with information, and fluent in expression - but that is not the same as being " intellectual".

There seems a necessary element of detachment involved with the intellect; with a degree of objectivity and with an ability to explore the untrodden and the unknown; to speculate; to formulate and to create. Also to be able to evaluate, discriminate and judge.

I find that if you have debating skills then you are able to argue both sides of an issue. I know I'm a bit of a contrarian myself - and I often find that people seem to think that if you argue convincingly for one position then it must mean that yourself hold that position. But this is not necessarily true.

RebelliousCow · 26/01/2024 11:57

I used to be a teacher, and you do find that there are many good, competent teachers but they are just not very intellectual. To my mind if you have super bright A-level students, for example, you need to be intellectual in order to challenge them. Some teachers work best with lower ability ( or even naughty) groups and get good things from them, but are frightened of really bright kids.

WifeOfTiresias · 26/01/2024 12:22

This reminds me of a conversation I had right back when DD was a toddler, with a Mum whose DD was born days apart from mine.

She had been having the usual toddler tantrums issues with her DD, but I was shocked when she pronounced "All girls are bitches and anyone who believes differently is just deluding themselves." Shock

The internalised misogyny was shocking and seems to be what is at play here with Zoe. We're all nasty and those menz are just lovely!