First time poster - question about GC beliefs

[lovelycosyslippers]

This is my first time posting on this board. I am trying to work out what my position is in the trans/gender debate.

If you hold gender critical beliefs, do you accept that some people firmly believe they are born in the 'wrong' body, and have a right to live as the other sex (up to but not including the point where it would impinge on the rights of that other sex), possibly taking hormones and undergoing surgery? Is this a coherent position to hold?

Or do you believe these people should not ever be supported to live as the opposite sex? That doing so is always wrong?

Hope this question makes sense!

I believe that anyone can live however they want within the law but are not and should not be considered as the opposite sex. It will always be women that lose out.

Can you clarify what you mean by 'live as the opposite sex'

people should have a right to dress how they choose (including clothes traditionally associated with a different gender) and change their name if they want.

If hormones and surgery are medically necessary that should be possible (but might need to be private treatment, not NHS).

But they still cannot change their sex and must be prepared to be classified according to sex on the occasions when it matters (sport, changing rooms, medical care etc).

Basically, if you think that gender identity is more important than, and should be prioritised over, biological sex, you don’t hold a gender critical belief.

I think that there are people (a minority of those now considered to be 'trans') who have genuine dysphoria. If hormones and even surgery genuinely help them (after full counselling etc) then that should be possible.

And obviously anyone can 'present' in whatever way they choose.
Being gender critical means we don't want anyone bound by gender stereotypes so if a man wants long hair and makeup that's fine.
This means that the idea of 'living as the opposite sex' is void ... what can it possibly mean?

Yo, OP. Welcome.

If you hold gender critical beliefs, do you accept that some people firmly believe they are born in the 'wrong' body,

Yes, sure. People believe all sorts of stuff.

and have a right to live as the other sex

In what way?

(up to but not including the point where it would impinge on the rights of that other sex), possibly taking hormones and undergoing surgery?

Do people have a right to take hormones and have surgery? Adults, yes. Children, no.

Is this a coherent position to hold?

?

Or do you believe these people should not ever be supported to live as the opposite sex? That doing so is always wrong?

Again, what do you mean by 'live as the opposite sex'?

Yes I think that some people may believe they are born in the "wrong body" but they aren't and I don't believe anyone can live as the opposite sex, I think they need therapy not hormones and surgery, it's not "kind" to affirm these peoples delusions in my opinion.
On the other hand I think people can wear and do what they like as long as they don't expect other people to believe what they believe and do NOT infringe on other peoples rights and beliefs.

Sure, adults can call themselves anything they want, dress however they choose and make any body modifications they desire. Nothing to do with me until they try to force themselves into certain spaces reserved for women or attempt to force anyone to pretend to agree with their beliefs.

However, children shouldn't be encouraged to imagine they can change sex or were born on the wrong body and no medical treatment should be considered for minors.

I don't believe that there is any such thing as "living as the opposite sex".

If a man wants to wear dresses and change his name to Sheila and request that people use feminine pronouns then that's fine by me (as long as the latter is genuinely a request, not a demand), but he is not living as a woman because the only way to live as a woman is to be in a female body.

I feel it is important to make this distinction because if we accept that someone who adopts certain superficial trappings of womanhood is "living as the opposite sex", we are effectively agreeing that that is what the opposite sex is. This excludes gender non conforming people (such as butch lesbians who never wear dresses or makeup but are nonetheless still women) and it is confusing for young people. I also believe is is feeding the current epidemic of young people, particularly girls, wanting to identify out of their birth sex. If we accept the premise that someone like Dylan Mulvaney is "living as" a member of the female sex, the danger is that girls who see that and don't identify with any of it will not think "he is not a woman", but rather "maybe I am not a woman". This is clearly harmful, so I think we need to be very careful about the language we use, and about not allowing the harmful language others use to go unchallenged.

As for hormones and surgery, I am very uncomfortable with the idea of allowing people to harm their healthy bodies to treat a condition that only exists in their mind. This is even more dangerous when it comes to young people. So I am completely opposed to puberty blockers and I don't think even young adults should have access to cross sex hormones or surgery until they are at least in their mid 20s and have undergone years of extensive therapy. Even then, there are a couple of high profile detransitioners (Sinead Watson and Ritchie Herron) who had surgery in their late 20s and now regret it. I believe that the pharmaceutical industry should be looking into developing drugs to help alleviate the symptoms of dysphoria and allow people to live more comfortably in their natural bodies. But I can't see that happening, both due to the current power of this ideology and the fact that there is a lot of money to be made in turning healthy people into lifelong medical patients.

The whole thing is a mess.

There are two legal judgments which define / summarise gender critical beliefs as protected under the Equality Act 2010 - the Maya Forstater Employment Appeal Tribunal and the Bailey v Garden Court Chambers Employment Tribunal.

You might find it helpful to read those.

People can believe anything they want and people can wish things all they want but you cannot be something you are not just because you want to be, if that were the case I would be a millionaire, size 6 and sleeping with Jamie Dornan.

If you hold gender critical beliefs, do you accept that some people firmly believe they are born in the 'wrong' body,

• yes. People believe lots of things that I don’t feel for myself.

and have a right to live as the other sex (up to but not including the point where it would impinge on the rights of that other sex),

• People should be able to wear what clothes they like, call themselves what they like, take hormones and make body modifications. They shouldn’t be able to insist that others call them by new names if it’s hard for them to do so, and they shouldn’t be able to insist that others must believe them to be the opposite sex. This includes using facilities for the opposite sex or taking part in sports etc on opposite sex teams, as it’s unfair for women in particular. It should not be ok for children to make hormonal or surgical modifications.

possibly taking hormones and undergoing surgery? Is this a coherent position to hold?

Or do you believe these people should not ever be supported to live as the opposite sex? That doing so is always wrong?

• there’s nothing wrong with wanting to dress as the opposite sex - I think it would be a hell of a lot better all round if men felt comfortable about wearing more of a range of clothes just like women do. But there’s a lot wrong with insisting others believe in the fiction that clothes or body modifications or hormones actually change someone’s sex. We should treat each other with perfect respect all the time regardless of sex and most of the time someone’s sex is irrelevant - but sometimes it matters and gender identity, while important for some, is not more important than actual sex. I am for example perfectly comfortable with there being many people of varying religions in the world, but I would be very uncomfortable with being made to declare that I also believe their god is real when I don’t.

Those who believe they are born in the wrong body, only do so because they have been told it's ok to believe it, and it provides some sort of causation to their mental distress.

There is no medical grounding to support these claims, which were invented by lobbyist charities and big pharmacy where several those in senior positions have since been removed a

I do t believe it is right to encourage someone to "love as the opposite sex" bye see the life long inability to achieve "living as the opposite sex" causes ongoing significant turmoil and mental stain for the individual.

Treating dysmorphia appropriately requires significant therapy, many techniques as yet are still to be identified as the focus up to now was to affirm such beliefs.

As it was said years ago, it will remain a medical scandal of our future. Read up on Bell vs Tavistock, the use of Gillick Competence, Maya Forstater, Alison Bailey lots to get you started.

People may "believe they are born in the wrong body" in the same way they may believe doing laundry on Jan 1st means they're cursing a loved one, or that the moon is made of cheese.

It doesn't mean that belief is reflected in reality. We are our bodies, we don't inhabit them like ghosts in a meat suit.

How best to help people live their lives will vary. For many, helping them to come to terms with who they are is the best outcome - with watchful waiting the vast majority of gender-questioning young people find it resolves itself as they go through puberty and out the other side.

For a small number of people, mostly male according to the historical records, changing their gender presentation is the best outcome. That doesn't mean aonyone has to pretend to believe they've changed sex, nor does it give them the right to access services, spaces and support aimed at women.

I don't give a fig if Steve wants to call himself Skye and wear a twinset. I do care if Skye then wants to join my hockey team.

I really think it's important to look at this phrase:

to live as the opposite sex

And ask oneself what that actually means.

A man cannot experience menstruation, pregnancy, childbirth, menopause - all of the things that make the largest difference to women's lives.

Even women who don't have children have the 'children question' and the risk/possibility of pregnancy accompany them from the onset of menses til menopause.

We are deeply impacted by our bodies and our lived experiences. No man will ever share those experiences, no matter how much facial surgery he has, no matter how many hormones he takes.

So in what way can anyone 'live as the opposite sex'?

It's not possible. It's possibly to try, or pretend, or even believe one is doing so.

But objectively, logically, practically, it's not possible.

WRT adults being able to make body modifications as they please, I think that if there is no proven medical benefit, this should not be available on the NHS.

I also think people should be protected from unethical surgeons - there need to be some limits to what is allowed I think to protect vulnerable adults - I'm not sure what those limits should be, and how people should be judge as vulnerable though.

I think some people believe it about themselves- I always understood it as a metaphor for discomfort about your own body but now I’ve no idea if that’s the case or if it’s a yearning for the stereotypes of the opposite sex.

I don’t really care if someone believes it of themselves as long as I’m not expected to agree with them.

The trouble with saying that adults seeking private treatment is fine is that at the moment children are being told they are born in the wrong body. Especially if non conforming or if gay. 18 is still so young and so many of these teens have growing up to do

Here’s the summary from the Forstater Appeal Tribunal.

“The core of the Claimant's belief is that sex is biologically immutable. There are only two sexes, male and female. She considers this is a material reality. Men are adult males. Women are adult females. There is no possibility of any sex in-between male and female; or that a person is neither male nor female. It is impossible to change sex. Males are people with the type of body which, if all things are working, are able to produce male gametes (sperm). Females have the type of body which, if all things are working, is able to produce female gametes (ova), and gestate a pregnancy. It is sex that is fundamentally important, rather than “gender”, “gender identity” or “gender expression”. She will not accept in any circumstances that a trans woman is in reality a woman or that a trans man is a man. That is the belief that the Claimant holds.”

There’s more detail on page 7.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/60c1cce1d3bf7f4bd9814e39/Maya_Forstater_v_CGD_Europe_and_others_UKEAT0105_20_JOJ.pdf

I'm all for religious tolerance and freedom of belief between adults, as you say within the bounds of basically, your right to swing your arms around as you like ends at someone else's nose. For example I'm all for mixed sex 'women's' resources so long as female only womens resources and services are also provided, so that male people who would like to identify as women and have additional choices to men's resources and services do not exclude women with vulnerabilities from having anything. Answers have to work for everyone, basically.

I don't believe that children should be taught any one political or religious faith or belief as the 'truth' as opposed to 'some people believe', and I have very serious concerns about children being sterilised or harmed by medications that have not been properly tested, that may have a serious lifetime impact or result in a young adult bitterly regretting what has been done to their body and stating that the adults who helped them into this lifetime harm should have protected them from it.

The whole 'live as' thing.... well it sounds very nice, if you don't think about it too much. I mean if someone wants to live as a Vulcan or an elf or a cat and they aren't involving non consenting others or behaving inappropriately then let them do whatever makes them happy. But if I asked you how you feel about a white person living as if they are black by dressing/blacking up, or a non Native American person living as a Native American person, or how you feel about a non disabled person living as if they are disabled and wishing to use resources and services for actually disabled people, would you agree that this gets a bit more complicated and is not nearly as harmless?

Hi there and welcome, @lovelycosyslippers

I started my journey of enquiry as to what my position on the trans debate about eight months ago. What “peaked” me was the deceleration by stonewall and others, including some females, “trans women are real women”.

It was also at the time bothering me about trans identifying as female accessing women’s services such as rape crisis therapy groups, and competing in women's sports.

The more i researched the worse it appears to be to me. I fell upon this board on that journey and located all manner of sources thanks to GC community and their discussions

To really understand all the issues in detail you need to read up an awful lot but the best place to go is Helen Joyce on you tube she explains GC in an easily understood and measured way.

Thanks everyone, this is really helpful.

By "live as the opposite sex" I guess I mean: wearing clothes usually associated with the opposite sex, going by a name generally associated with the opposite sex, taking hormones, undergoing surgery, all with the aim of (1) "passing" as the opposite sex to a casual observer, and (2) alleviating distress they feel from being born the "wrong" sex.

If an individual did these things, but stopped short of entering single sex only spaces or competing in single sex sports, for example - would that be ok to a GC feminist?

@Froodwithatowel The whole race issue is bothering me too. How can I accept that some people have the right to present as the opposite sex if I wouldn't accept someone presenting as a different race?