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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

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Original poster

Non-Binary

43 replies

InAMess2023 · 29/12/2023 10:55

Genuinely struggling with this one...

Two members of my family (20 and 21) and one of their partners have all decided they are now non-binary. Family members have made zero effort to change their appearance in any way from their biological sex other than one of them wearing fishnets and mini skirt on very rare occasions yet still being masculine in all other aspects. Partner dresses in very provocative female clothing despite appearing masculine facially etc.

I'd already distance myself from family members due to some aspects of their behaviour which were completely alien to me. Both on the spectrum and claim this means they can never work, despite being able to socialise as normal. And I have ASD myself and work damn hard so was never going to sit well.

However another family member has basically implied that im transphobic because I just don't understand the non binary thing. I'd understand better if it was feeling neither male or female but it's the one day im one and one day im the other that I can't get my head around. The explanation family member gave as well also made no sense... 'well you know sometimes you want to dress and behave like a male or female' - well I sometimes wear tracksuits, drink pints and shout at the football but it's never once made me think I'm secretly a bloke!

I like to think of myself as fairly open minded but im just completely baffled.

OP posts:

Gassylady · 30/12/2023 11:55

@MargotBamborough brilliant. I think I am also non binary. I don’t feel like or identify as a woman - I am one. But I don’t own any make up would break one or both ankles if I tried to wear heels. I do own a couple of dresses but haven’t worn one in about a decade and only wear trousers. Yep definitely non binary. Does this mean I need to dye my hair an edgy colour? Shame I quite like the grey after COVID lack of haircut meant it was convenient to grow our the previous dye!

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 30/12/2023 12:21

InAMess2023 · 30/12/2023 07:14

@VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia you know when someone deliberately follows you around MN leaving deliberately goody comments? Yeah that.

Not sure how many times I have to tell you but your comments are not welcome on any thread I choose to make. Never has the classic MN phrase ODFOD been more appropriate.

I'm an FWR regular, been here under various names since 2018. I clicked your thread because I was browsing FWR. I'm on another FWR thread right now. Do an advanced search on my username if you don't believe me.

It's an open forum and I'm doing nothing wrong by flagging a logical inconsistency in another poster's point of view. AIBU is full of posters doing exactly that.

Not sure how many times I have to tell you

To my knowledge, this is the first time.

ProtectAndTerf · 30/12/2023 12:22

@Gassylady
You don't need to dye your hair (although if it's pale grey heading towards white it's perfect for taking bright, unnatural colours!). That's gender presentation. We're talking about gender identity... the inner part of your true self that somehow uses the categories of biological sex yet apparently has no relation to them. I do hope that's clear!

I'm intrigued by the idea of loads of us middle aged women identifying as NB. Do you think it would still become uncool (or whatever the word is now!) if that happens by women genuinely identifying as NB? All the "be kind" lot or those with "trans" children deciding they are part of it too? I ask because I actually know someone, same age as me (circa 40) who's done this. People appear to be taking it seriously...

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 30/12/2023 12:27

Musomama1 · 30/12/2023 09:00

Yep exactly. In my teen goth days many of my friends experimented like this with women's clothing. Because it got attention / was part of the uniform.

It doesn't sound like dysphoria here, it's just being part of a tribe of fellow misfits although at 20/21 they are hardly teenagers.

Just smile and nod, I think they have want to cry transphobe. All part of the angst and othering.

This is why all mums need to claim an NB identity. We'd make it uncool in a year.

Show quote history

No goth ever has a goth mum, that's for sure.

Can non-mums in their forties take part in this?

Original poster

InAMess2023 · 30/12/2023 12:35

@VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia you know full well what you are doing. I've asked you on my other thread to stop commenting. Yet here you are.

OP posts:

winniebeen · 30/12/2023 12:49

If someone says it's 'transphobic' I'd just challenge them and ask in a neutral tone 'how so?'

Remember the word transphobia is wielded as a weapon to stop people challenging nonsense.

Proper transphobia is unfortunately lost in the mire of all of this.

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 30/12/2023 12:56

InAMess2023 · 30/12/2023 12:35

@VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia you know full well what you are doing. I've asked you on my other thread to stop commenting. Yet here you are.

I've asked you on my other thread to stop commenting.

I had to re-read your updates to see that instruction. I'm sorry for missing it.

Topofthemountain · 30/12/2023 13:05

One cannot stop anyone from posting, if you feel that they are breaking the talk guidelines then report the post and let MN decide if anything needs doing.

Though I do wish MN had a hide poster option, not least because it would save everyone else from these ridiculous spats.

Shadowsindarkplaces · 30/12/2023 13:12

MargotBamborough · 30/12/2023 11:20

Yeah that's a great idea.

They/them: I'm non binary.
You: That's nice dear, so am I.
They/them: Oh, cool, what are your pronouns?
You: Sorry?
They/them: What pronouns do you use?
You: Well when I'm talking about myself, I use "I". When I'm talking to you, I use "you".
They/them: But what pronouns should people use when talking about you?
You: Well if they're talking to me they'll say "you", usually.
They/them: I mean if they're talking about you in the third person?
You: Oh goodness, I don't know. I mean, if I'm not there it makes no difference, does it? I won't be able to hear them.
They/them: But do you want them to call you "she" or "they"?
You: Well "she" would make grammatical sense, wouldn't it? Unless they are talking about me and someone else in the plural, or they don't know whether I'm a man or a woman, in which case "they" would be correct.
They/them: So you're not non binary then?
You: Oh yes I am! I reject all the stereotypes, I find them terribly sexist.
They/them: That's not what non binary means.
You: Oh well, what does it mean then?
They/them: It means you don't identify as either a man or a woman.
You: Yes, me neither. I don't identify as anything. I just am what I am.
They/them: But you said that people should call you "she", as if you're a woman.
You: Well yes, that's just grammatically correct, isn't it? That doesn't mean I am identifying as anything. How is someone who talks about me in my absence supposed to know how I identify anyway?
They/them: You tell them what your preferred pronouns are.
You: (chuckling) Oh no, dear, that's not how pronouns work. Pronouns are supposed to simplify grammar by giving us quick ways to refer to people without using their name. They're not supposed to make things more complicated. If you have to ask what pronouns to use, you've rather defeated the point of pronouns.
They/them: So... you're not non binary then?
You: Of course I am! Pink for girls, blue for boys, all that rubbish, I don't identify with any of that! I am an individual!
They/them: That's not what non binary means.
You: So what does it mean then? You're a man or a woman who wants people to use special pronouns? (chuckles) Goodness me, whatever will they/them think of next?

Show quote history

Great Post! love it!

BreatheAndFocus · 30/12/2023 13:19

Non-binary is meaningless. Some people give quite a convoluted explanation of it, but a friend of mine with a NB child in their 20s is very supportive of them and very much on the lookout for ‘transphobia’, and yet happily explained to me that their child identified as NB because it was all about how stereotypes applied or didn’t apply to them! So their adult child is non-binary because they don’t fulfill/identify with stereotypes associated with women and also don’t fulfil/identify with stereotypes associated with men.

I was gobsmacked that they happily told me this, especially as I’d previously said gender ideology and stereotypes were regressive.

These are people who, despite their much-touted progressiveness, are actually very old-fashioned and can’t conceive that women can like Maths/have short hair/not wear make-up without having to have a special ‘not a woman’ identity. The rest of us just know that women can do all those things and are still women (of course) and men can have long hair/look after children/like ballet etc etc and still be men.

What I do now when someone goes on about being NB is to pretend to be sympathetic and understanding and tell them I know others who grew up in a conservative environment too. Because that’s what it is - a conservative, regressive view of men and women straight out of the early 20th century.

twigolsenisabrat · 30/12/2023 13:22

At 20 and 21 they are at that age where they are essentially leaving the family unit and needing to join another 'tribe/family' to develop their identity. For some it is sports they get involved in, others a hobby of some kind, other travel etc.

Thanks to the internet gender roulette is now a popular lifestyle choice and good luck to them. They are adults and free to make their own choices. You are free to have your own opinion but should not have to suffer abuse from other family members for not agreeing with them. Raise an eyebrow, mention you don't believe in sexist stereotyping which you consider misogynistic, and let them crack on with it.

BUT Both on the spectrum and claim this means they can never work, despite being able to socialise as normal. This is rubbish and quite honesty an insult to those who do work hard. With the 'bring the whole you to work' gaining traction they really cannot use this as an excuse.

Gassylady · 30/12/2023 13:41

@ProtectAndTerf thank you for your kind words. Now I won’t have to go and “educate myself” thanks really wonderful of you to do it for me 😜😂Perhaps ill invest in a pronouns badge rather than the hair colour

Original poster

InAMess2023 · 30/12/2023 13:42

@twigolsenisabrat I'm really hoping that with the government allegedly bringing in new schemes focusing on getting people to work from home/find jobs that they are suited to that they won't have much choice. I have ASD and have worked so hard to get where I am - but for my generation we also weren't allowed not to go out and get a job etc (not to mention I would have ended up homeless!)

OP posts:

HoneyButterPopcorn · 30/12/2023 21:53

Gender is a load of tosh. All humans are one sex, or the other.

That is all.

“ooooh I’m zaloobia-gender! And my pronouns are toot/sweet!”

Yawn “fascinating… but which sex are you?”

MargotBamborough · 30/12/2023 22:50

HoneyButterPopcorn · 30/12/2023 21:53

Gender is a load of tosh. All humans are one sex, or the other.

That is all.

“ooooh I’m zaloobia-gender! And my pronouns are toot/sweet!”

Yawn “fascinating… but which sex are you?”

You don't need to ask what sex they are, assuming you have functioning eyes and ears.

HoneyButterPopcorn · 30/12/2023 23:45

I’d only ever ask if they seemed to be unsure themselves…

QueenBitch666 · 31/12/2023 01:50

You can't make sense of it because it's a load of navel gazing bollox

HoneyButterPopcorn · 31/12/2023 11:07

My niece was banging on about her shiny newly minted non binary pals at school (she’s in a girls school and they are 11ffs).

I just said ‘that’s nice, but which sex are they dear?’

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