Why are so many women hellbent on acting against their own interest?

[thedankness]

From TWAW, pro "sex-work", "kinky sex" and porn, plastic surgery, accepting low standards in relationships with men, being anti-abortion to more trivial things such as wearing heels, and yes, shaving, and so much more, so many women will defend these things to the hilt. They refuse/are unable to see how these things are bad for themselves and/or women generally, even after presented with arguments. Obviously some people will disagree with points made in an argument, but I just don't see men subjugating themselves en masse like I do women.

I feel sad. Why can't we as women just love ourselves and look out for ourselves? I feel like we are groomed into self-hate. Is the notion of female self-acceptance and worth truly so radical that a significant number can't even fathom it as a possibility for themselves?

Why is it so common for women to act against their interest? And can or should we do anything about it?

This is a bit poorly-worded, have thoughts but am interested to hear others' opinions.

@LolaSmiles it is a bit sad...almost as if women were more likely to step on other women and find things to complain and comment about than men could ever be

not because men are nicer by any means - i doubt they care, but it seems like some women think they do

@LolaSmiles it is a bit sad...almost as if women were more likely to step on other women and find things to complain and comment about than men could ever be

not because men are nicer by any means - i doubt they care, but it seems like some women think they do
My take looking back is that they presented a certain way to be taken seriously when women were, and are, still less likely to progress to senior positions. This shaped their approach to ambitious younger staff.

I've seen men being promoted for being the right sort of lad, for having the right (male pattern) banter, for talking a good talk, only to get in post and have more junior women doing the grunt work that keeps the wheels turning. Women in the workplace, much like society, are judged on their appearance and mannerisms much more harshly than men.

On the whole women are less likely to seek promotion when they're entirely competent, but men will seek promotion because they feel that they'll work it out if they get it. Women who don't present a certain way are too easily dismissed and overlooked so to be taken seriously there's often a pressure to present a certain way. It's grounded in a system where women carving a career out are starting 10 feet behind men with less experience and weaker skills.

I'm deeply skeptical of any attempts to look at individual female behaviour and view it as a "see women are awful to women independent of men" behaviour, because at root a lot of it comes down to systemic issues.

@LolaSmiles I agree that it comes from systemic issues, but trying to police the right way to be a woman instead of openly opposing the sexist environment we live in is feeding into that system

Women telling other women what shoes they should wear to be good feminists / to be taken seriously is like when people were discussing importance of appearance of imported bananas around brexit time

yes, the appearance of bananas was regulated but it seriously did not matter in a grand scheme of things, but it was a convenient element of smoke screen

I see what you mean about it feeding into the system and agree with you, it the bit about that being independent of men that I'm not sure about. I can see how their position was equally a double edged sword and in their own ways they did try to identify female talent in a way others didn't.

We will all make decisions and act in certain ways that aren't 100% feminist from the perspective of actions that advance women as a class.

I know when I got to their position I was very conscious about my actions, but there may be more junior women who looked at me and thought "when I get to Lola's role I'd do that differently".

I agree with this so much. I’m a rebel feminist at heart and any man or woman telling me that their world view of this choice is feminist and that choice is not feminist puts my hackles up. We should be fighting sexist oppression, not engaging in endless discussions policing the behaviour of other women as sufficiently feminist.

I dont give a shit if a woman prefers Mrs, Ms, Miss. I will never pressure a woman to choose one because “it’s more feminist” or not choose one because “you’re just furthering the patriarchy”

Patriarchy is all about policing women, that’s all you do by taking the place of patriarchy to police women. You are not liberating or freeing women, you are policing women to your own view. And it’s a waste of time, it is a distraction from what feminists should really be doing- fighting the reality of our oppression.

I’d rather be tackling domestic violence or appalling rape conviction rates than discussing Mrs,Ms,Miss, makeup, shaving, sexual preference, who does the childcare in a way that tears women down for exercising their liberation to make their own choices.

@MercanDede I agree, there are greater issues than someone's name...but it also shows how privileged some of us are to even begin to worry and discuss these matters for days on a message board.

Besides, picking on those things will just result in going round in circles like we did in the past. Women were told to be gentle, not even mention sex, absolutely never do "manly" things like wear hats, ride bicycles and smoke...so women did. because that was going against the system.

Post-sexual revolution we are now told that by wearing make-up, having sex and wearing heels we are supporting patriarchy.

Now we are being told that keeping majority of custody post split / divorce plays into hands of men, but women had to fight for their right to keep their children if they were to leave their husband - it was not that long ago when men had automatic full custody.

And then we remove all human aspects and forget that women may like some shoes models more than others, not be very invested in their careers, simply love their children and like makeup.

In the meantime courts still ask what was the victim wearing

@PaintedEgg
It is an endless circle, you are right. What is judged feminist/nonfeminist by a vocal subset of women changes each generation. It quite often flip flops- I have seen it happen like a pendulum swinging back and forth on a few issues in my half century of life. It’s a waste of time. It only benefits the patriarchy to have women policing women in endless circles of policing the behaviour of other women while blaming them for the oppression of men!

Like courts still ask what was she wearing? We are doing that to other women!

Oh my, you wear makeup and heels? Shame you’ll never be taken seriously as a professional, and you’re making women look frivolous, so it’s your fault that we still have a gender pay gap.

You got married? How could you? You’ve allowed a man to own you, put his surname and a finger slave shackle on you and you know Mrs means Mr’s, why?!. It’s women like you that are keeping other women down.

It gets me really ARGH! To read this sort of stuff from women who profess to be feminists. Policing women is doing the patriarchy’s job for men, no matter how feminist you think your views are, they will reverse in time because it’s a circular road to hell, like the M25. That’s how I view it.

For as long as women want the best men there will be competition and because women know these things work on men to get their attention it’s kind of inevitable for women to behave this way because if they don’t another woman will take their place. I’ll get hate for this but the social hierarchy is something like:

1. attractive men
2. attractive women
3. unattractive women
4. unattractive men

as you cant really control what other people want these sort of behaviours are inevitable. As for thousands of years men were providers they tend to focus more on outward beauty/youth as markers for social value and to compete against other men. It’s just kind of how it is. There’s a reason they say women control access to sex and men control access to relationships. I hate to say it but all these behaviours your complaining about only will get worse because dating apps exist the competition is extreme so this is why you see women will to put themselves in more and more dangerous positions because if they don’t an attractive guy can just go elsewhere. sweet shop mentality.

@Mambo1986 you won't get hate but this hierarchy is simply inaccurate - just look at politicians, most of them have faces only mother could love and yet they are at the absolute top of the hierarchy

not to mention that most people are in monogamous relationships so it matters very little what "access to men" you have when you don't want access to them

You are doing the exact same thing in this post that you criticise other feminists for. This is you telling women who want to talk about the aspects of our inequality and experiences of patriarchy that relate to naming and titles that we're doing it wrong. You're policing, hence the comments about wasting time and distractions.

Your attitude to women who want to speak about the misogyny we experience due to our decision to engage in less patriarchal naming and title traditions doesn't liberate or free women. It doesn't fight the reality of our oppression and it doesn't tackle any of the things you say you want to prioritise.

By all means don't take any particular interest in this aspect of patriarchy and how it affects us if you don't want to. Nothing wrong in that, we all choose where we place our energies. But you can do that without doing what you've done here.

Random women stop me in the street to admire my legs. Does that count? It doesn’t happen when wearing trousers and trainers.
I think I have lost the thread here.

@WhatWouldJeevesDo I'm starting to see a trend here :P

to be honest the only man who has ever said anything about my shoes (not legs, shoes) was my husband but that does not count, does it?

It was your question so I guess you can say what counts and what it counts towards.

@MercanDede
I’m a rebel feminist at heart

Oh, I (may) like the sound of that.
Can I ask what you mean by that?
I’m picturing the great women of Korean and Chinese from the 4B movement.
Anything like them?

@WhatWouldJeevesDo while I was only half serious, I genuinely think men are not that interested in women's footwear

so if anyone was to have a genuine opinion and/or reaction it would be mostly women

My father hates heels with trousers if that helps.

But plenty of women would argue that this acceptance that in order to have power, or mitigate risk, they need to control their fertility in the right way, and have jobs in the right way, and put their kids in paid care (usually from lower class women,) is itself quite anti-woman.

Rather than recognizing that reproductive role means women and men may have different life paths, and need different kinds of social supports, this kind of "women in the workforce" idea as a center for feminism is the very opposite of radical. It takes for granted that the kind of economic arrangements that serve men serve women too. (And doesn't really ask if they even really serve men.)

Nor is it radical in that it tends to work best for middle class women, while working class women are still doing the childcare work, just for other people. Nor is it radical in the sense that it is very good for GDP and corporate capitalism, which wants as much of people's lives brought into the paid economy as possible, for their own benefit.

This is the big problem I have with this "why do women work against their interests" stuff, Or even, we all make unfemininst choices because we have to and that is ok of course. There is a very lazy assumption that it is simple to think about what it means to be feminist, and it means things like women prioritizing career, or men and women being equally likely to want to stay home with the baby.

The claim that these kinds of disagreements is stupid "choice" feminism is just incredibly dismissive.

Interesting @TempestTost.
I keep seeing religious parallels and I am definitely repelled by any religion that sets an impossible standard and then says ‘we are all sinners and God forgives us’
It seems things have only advanced in ways that fit in with capitalism.

@TempestTost all good points

I absolutely agree that some policies that I find helpful would have been deemed not very feminist by the logic of this thread

However, I do find a year long maternity to serve women, just like paternity serves women as much as it does men

🤣 Asking women to stop policing other women’s life choices isn’t the same thing as actively policing other women’s life choices. An analogy to what you are saying would be arguing that an anti-racist is doing the same thing as a racist by telling racists to shut up and mind their own business.

None of my posts are criticising women speaking about their own experiences or their own choices- in fact I fully support every woman’s freedom to make their own life choices.

You can have any surname you choose, no criticism from me.

It’s when you try and impose your choices on other women, tell other women what surname they should choose or tell them their choice is anti feminist or feminist that I will always say, STFU, not your beeswax and honestly women doing this or that on such minor things have zero impact on the “patriarchy”.

Let women be women.

What I mean I alluded to earlier, that I am not in support of any attempts to replace patriarchy with matriarchy which is exactly what all this discussion centred on policing other women’s life choices is creating. It’s so called feminists taking on a matriarchal role and telling women things like it’s not a feminist choice to take your husband’s surname, or be a SAHM or to like party princess dresses, wear makeup and heels with a sniff sniff and a judgemental stare.

Women are not liberated if they end up having to appease and obey Big Mother what decides what is feminist.

This is a good example of what I referred to a couple of pages back when I mentioned when I said that some women simply won't tolerate discussion of aspects of misogyny relating to surnames. That's what your STFU is.

Your problem, quite clearly, is with women talking about this: after all, it's not like any of us have the power to prevent other women doing what they want to do, despite your attempts to conflate talking and controlling. Frankly, your distinction between policing and talking seems to be that it's only policing if you don't want to hear it. The racism analogy is risible.

Additionally, while I agree that you continue to say it's not other women's business, it remains a fact that all of our choices and behaviours in this way impact each other. Because that's just how naming systems and titles work.

You don't get to tell us that we shouldn't be talking about the impact that other women's choices have had on us, about that contribution to the sexism we experience. It isn't for you to say. And nothing you write when complaining about this does anything whatsoever to impact on the patriarchy either.

I have no trouble with you talking about it, after all, I am talking about it too. There is no misogyny or inherent patriarchy in surnames is my opinion.

Im not conflating talking with judging and pressuring women to act the way you’d want them to. Look at the OP^ it is very clear that the OP is of the opinion that women are acting against their own interest (I disagree) and ask should anything be done? I’m answering the OP by saying, no, nothing should be done because controlling women through socialisation and stigma and pressure is just patriarchy with an M instead of a P.

You don't get to tell us that we shouldn't be talking about the impact that other women's choices have had on us

Thank goodness I haven’t said you can’t talk about something. You can flap your lips all day long. I don’t have to accept t your premise that other women’s choices do materially affect your life and I don’t.

Sure, there are all kinds of possibilities. And often hard to parse, because the outcomes can be indirect.

I've talked to Swedish women, for example, thrilled with their maternity and parental leave, and excellent childcare arrangements. I've also talked with Swedish women who want to care for their own kids, but it's almost impossible unless they are wealthy, because the financial supports to keep women in the workforce are so socially expensive that making the decision NOT to take advantage of them becomes impossible for most people. The whole society is predicated in almost all adults being in paid employment.

So there isn't a right or wrong, in terms of "is it feminist". That's not really even a sensible question in a way, what could the answer possibly be? What there is, is a set of pros and cons to the various decisions a society can make.

What did your STFU refer to, then @MercanDede ? I don't see how you can square the claim that you aren't saying we shouldn't talk about this issue with what you wrote about how you'll tell women who point out that some choices are anti-feminist to shut up. Nor is it clear how you can claim that's not policing.

Also, you don't have to hold the same view as me about 'materially', albeit only one of us is speaking from a position of any experience of that aspect of misogyny here. But it's not a matter of opinion that naming traditions and titles and the way we use them also impact other people. It's how they work. Nor is is a matter of opinion that the tradition of the woman taking the man's name on marriage is patriarchal. These things are facts, the only thing we get to decide is how we respond to them.