Why are so many women hellbent on acting against their own interest?

[thedankness]

From TWAW, pro "sex-work", "kinky sex" and porn, plastic surgery, accepting low standards in relationships with men, being anti-abortion to more trivial things such as wearing heels, and yes, shaving, and so much more, so many women will defend these things to the hilt. They refuse/are unable to see how these things are bad for themselves and/or women generally, even after presented with arguments. Obviously some people will disagree with points made in an argument, but I just don't see men subjugating themselves en masse like I do women.

I feel sad. Why can't we as women just love ourselves and look out for ourselves? I feel like we are groomed into self-hate. Is the notion of female self-acceptance and worth truly so radical that a significant number can't even fathom it as a possibility for themselves?

Why is it so common for women to act against their interest? And can or should we do anything about it?

This is a bit poorly-worded, have thoughts but am interested to hear others' opinions.

in this case women going along with things listed in the op

Can you not see how this wording and that used by OP just comes across as patronising? I'm not 'going along' with shit and neither are most women who do the things/ believe the things that OP listed 😂

The OP reeks of "women who don't subscribe to my every thought and belief about what's best for us are brainwashed and don't understand what they're doing" and I think all the intelligent, hard working, educated women of this thread who have beef with this (myself included) are entitled to that opinion.

I have really enjoyed this thread. The one thing that stands out is that there are as many opinions as there are women. Do we need a man to come along and tell us what to think?

I could spend a long time replying to this thread, but I’m in bed with pneumonia, so I’ll just say one thing.

More than one detransitioner that I’ve encountered online has said something like, “I’ve always been really interested in makeup and fashion. When I was a regular girl, those interests meant I was shallow and dumb. Once I transitioned, makeup and fashion were seen as ‘edgy, gender-defying’ interests for me to have. Doing literally the exact same things was cool now that I was identifying as male. I’ve gone back to identifying as female, and I have to remind myself every day that I’m not an idiot or ‘bad for feminism’ if I want to wear red lipstick or use concealer.”

According to OP and some others on here I don't need a man to tell me what to think - just a woman who is of course infinitely better than me because she chooses not to wear the occasional mascara unlike pesky, little handmaid me 🤣

Also @YankSplaining I don't remember the name of the person but I'm sure I saw that too not long ago. Definitely an interesting addition to the discussion.

@CuriousAlien I never thought a woman complaining about grooming habits and kinks of other women would set up a new order

however, people having an opinion about bodies of other people is a big pet peeve of mine. I never felt inclined to explain to strangers how something they do to their own body may impact wellbeing of them, me and society on a whole and it baffles me when others do it

in simplest terms - i am just as likely to get annoyed at a man telling me to grow out my head hair as I am likely to get annoyed at a woman telling me to grow out my leg hair...as far as I am concerned, my hair (and body as a whole) is none of anyone's business and if this somehow poses a threat to female population of the world then i guess im going to hell 😜

On another note, I think permanent and more invasive body modifications are a good example of how people will interpret someone else's choices to fit their own narrative

just ask any woman who had extreme breast augmentation, uses obvious lip filler or is heavily tattooed

men will likely message her (or even approach her in person) to insult her appearance and inform her how they'd never touch her with a 6ft pole, while women will claim she did this for men

@Fynetanksfather I wasn't referring to your comment. I found your comment useful.

@PaintedEgg by order I mean a value system where your choices are somehow seen as worth less than those of others. When I went vegetarian a friend of mine seemed to think I was implying that anyone not veggie was somehow less moral or more stupid than me. All this without me saying anything. Very offended he was. I suppose the thread title was quite baity but mostly this thread has seemed quite open and thoughtful. I think you're totally right about people interpreting other people's choices to fit their own narrative and there have been a lot of posts about that, about not assuming why other people do things. I don't understand why you seem to interpret a message of being told what to do from this. It seems a stretch to me.

@CuriousAlien the body of the main post mentions specifically people denying harm of presented examples even when faced with evidence for it...then no evidence was actually provided

a lot of the assumed harm comes from own perspective, even when discussing how these things affect (or are affected by) wider society.

For example: some women believe wearing make-up is harmful as it enforced already unrealistic expectations of appearance. They also may believe that if it was not for men then women would not wear make-up.

Other women may think this is a non-issue

While others may agree that make-up is something enforced by society but the issue is far more complex than "wanting to appeal to men". For example, even without male presence having acne may prompt some women to want to cover their skin condition - and if we are being honest, it would be probably other women who would make comments about it, not men

@PaintedEgg yes I completely agree there may be so many different underlying reasons for any particular observed behaviour. And this thread for me has seen a lot of people give their different takes on that. Prompted by a first post which for me had a sad and questioning tone.
And actually the people who felt offended or disagreed also made lots of good points. There began to be more of an edge to the thread (not talking about anyone in particular, this is just me remembering the impression I felt). That interested me is all. Especially in the wider cultural context of no-debate and people feeling their identity (or even their existence) is invalidated by disagreement (not saying this thread, more generally.)
Good stuff.

My hypothesis on this is that it isn't directly to do with men at all, it's about establishing female social hierarchies. Which may give access to men, but it's about power to a large extent.

Not everything women do is about the patriarchy or men. Female social hierarchies are their own thing and evident in a lot of societies, very much including ones where women hold power.

This is an interesting point. I would say that casual sex is "against the interests" of women far more than wearing some make-up, or even a lot of make up. The normalization of casual and uncommitted sex is nice for women who like it but creates huge, sometimes quite serious issues for women as a group.

But you don't often see posts saying, "I can't believe all of these women just having casual sex don't realize they are working against the interests of women, why don't they understand it's unfeminist? That it's a socially driven belief that it's healthy and normal? They must be selfish or a bit stupid. if they don't get it."

Even those who tended to agree with the principle would tend not to want to say it was unfeminist, or that society should discourage women from perusing sex outside of commitment.

@TempestTost and yet it was women themselves who fought for that liberation.

I absolutely disagree that casual sex is harmful to women as a whole - nobody is forcing anyone to do it! normalisation of one end of spectrum of sexual behaviour does not mean the other end is now "not normal". People can wait until their wedding night if they wish and they will find those who share those values.

There is not one way to be a woman, a human, a member of society, and range of behaviours and preferences is generally accepted - at least on social, if not individual, level.

And I think what posts and theories like some presented here are missing is the fact that women are also people. Each woman is a person with unique set of influences (some unconscious , some chosen) and experiences that shaped her personality and life. For example, not every woman will want committed relationship at certain point in her life, but that does not mean she won't want some sort of companionship and sex. Sometimes one needs a placeholder, women included, and it's fair for all parties involved to be open about it. If a man she slept with will then go on to never want another committed relationship then that's also fine, normalising it will mean he will be more inclined to be honest about it...although realistically, when people find the right person (cliche, I know) their commitment-phobia tends to disappear.

I do find the angle of women's hierarchy interesting and I absolutely agree that these do exist independent of men and patriarchy...and just like men can be absolute dicks to each other, women are often not above stepping on another woman to just prove a point.

@CuriousAlien in my home country we have a proverb that translates to literally "you don't discuss tastes". It's not that discussing tastes and preferences is bad, but that it often does tend to boil down to one person trying to explain why another person is wrong to do or like something. In reality, there is not a one solid argument as to why an individual should not do something, especially if the argument would require an assumption that the person making it knows what is best for the other person...and few things annoy people as much as "I know what is best for you" does

I see truth in this. I can't forget the mockery of the never ending eyelashes and eye brow plucking. And I distinctly remember a period when husbands were worried they'd missed the new hair do.

But these trends did not stop. Women wanted to outdo each other.

There is a female social greasy pole...

The OP's beef with shaving doesn't even remotely consider why some people do it, male or female. I have a friend who is autistic and regularly shaves and waxes extensively, as she finds the interaction between body hair and clothing a sensory nightmare.

So yeah...leave people alone and stop telling them what their best interests are.

oh, the eyebrow plucking! the wonderful, ever-changing trend nightmare that most men are either unaware of or don't understand and would not dare to approach the topic - but women seems to always have an opinion about eyebrows of other women 😂

Because its essentially a long list of criticising of women, from women who sound entirely unhappy and exactly like those type of men who criticise women because they need a blame outlet for failure in their own lives, can't bear women to have choices, and wish they could control and subjugate women into doing exactly as they're told.

The argument of “we are all influenced” is combined with a sneering implication that women who like traditionally feminine things must be weaker of mind and need to be told off by those of stronger and more masculine minds. This is said without a shred of irony, that the more masculine a woman you are, the stronger you are mentally. 🙄

OP:
“Why is it so common for women to act against their interest?”

I don’t think it is, I think that women being individuals with their own wants and desires are simply not behaving the way you would like them to.

Never plucked my brows thank christ. Some of my friends still have that tiny whispy brows from too much plucking. Waxing yes but I cant pluck. I love having a mainly hairless body though. I have long hair and nice brows and lashes but not a single hair on the rest of my body as I dont like it. Possibly linked to my autism which I never thought of but I am single and hairless cos I want to be not cos society tells me I should be. Society wouldnt even know if I had long hair on my body or not especially in this weather. Honestly live and let live.

@Psychoticbreak Exactly, surely one of the most fundamental principles of feminism is "my body, my rules", and I've got no time for people who judge and sneer at the choices of others, and make out that they're somehow letting the side down. My mother in law does it and I can't stand it.

OP:
I see time and time again women who absolutely defend their own subjugation

I think some of the backlash is in your initial OP, the list of things you see as subjugation did not include the very dangerous sexual fetish of choking during sex (which goes both ways, men have been strangled to death accidentally during sex as well as women). If you had limited your OP to just this one dangerous fetish, you would have had a much more positive response. Stating that these are all subjugation of women “From TWAW, pro "sex-work", "kinky sex" and porn, plastic surgery, accepting low standards in relationships with men, being anti-abortion to more trivial things such as wearing heels, and yes, shaving, and so much more, so many women will defend these things to the hilt. They refuse/are unable to see how these things are bad for themselves and/or women generally, even after presented with arguments.”

Well many of us are questioning your list. We don’t agree much of it is the subjugation of women.

My mother was like this when I was with my ex constantly saying things like I cannot believe you are getting your hair done/putting on a tan/getting nails done/wearing makeup all FOR A MAN. I was single for 11 years before I met my ex and tanned and got my hair and nails etc done but my own mother seemed to have not noticed this. Judgemental people annoy me.

@Psychoticbreak Exactly. I was part of the extreme end of the church for much of my life, and having a massive problem with the behaviour of others was part of the package. It was exhausting and pointless. Since I got out, I've made my peace with other people doing stuff I don't agree with or understand. We have our own priorities and it's very patronising and totalitarian to point at someone different and say they're getting it wrong.

PaintedEgg is correct. Corsets started out as comfortable, supportive undergarments. They did the same function as a bra and being made with flexible whale bone that flexed and moved with you, they were more comfortable than today’s underwire bras. They even had pregnancy corsets that helped to support your pregnant belly for which we have modern support bands now.

Women who went to work in WWI doing loading of trucks and factory work actually protested to keep their corsets on under their dresses because it gave them back support and kept the breasts from being hurt by the physical labour. By WWII we had bras, which had replaced the corset as support for the breasts. But many WWII women worked without the back support that corsets also provided and ended up with injured backs- as did and do male manual labourers.

Tightlacing was a fashion trend akin to the skinny heroin chic look of the 90s where a small minority of young women got very competitive about how narrow they could make their waist. Unfortunately, Hollywood always portrays corsets with the practice of tightlacing so most people assume that is how a corset was worn.

While we can all choose how much to care about social norms, it is the human condition to do so. Most people want social approval; we want friends, families and jobs and it’s not a “me” problem if I don’t want particularly want to jeopardise that. To not give a shit is to take a risk (which may only be perceived) but nevertheless it is a decision that men will not have to make.

I think society is responsible at least for triggering feelings about body hair. Most children are not even conscious of leg hair any more than their legs – both simply exist – until it is suggested by advertising, peers, parents etc. that leg hair ought to be removed. Crucially this is only for girls, so they now have attention drawn to a part of their body they previously didn’t think about and if they don’t absorb the messaging that it automatically needs to be removed, they now have to decide whether to conform or not, with its associated repercussions. Boys meanwhile have no reason to believe they are anything other than accepted as no one is drawing attention to their leg hair. It’s not hard to see how girls are programmed to have greater dissatisfaction with their bodies. Men get to be attractive in their natural state; women do not. That makes it not a purely individual issue but a sex class issue.

Re. swimsuits, I am asking why the norm is not catered to the unaltered female body in the way it is for men. I have never seen a man’s pubes at the swimming pool because swim shorts adequately cover them. Why does the norm (bikini briefs which is the same shape on both swimming costumes and bikinis) for women require exposing a private part or removing it?

Shaving is not inherently a feminist issue – it’s simply the removal of body hair with a blade. If female body hair was viewed in the same way as beards I wouldn’t have an issue. I actually think we might be slowly heading in that direction but we are not there currently.