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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Oh FFS another brand captured

90 replies

Unchristmascadeau · 20/12/2023 17:49

Lemonade Dolls this time. Loved their comfy pretty underwear, I think they’re also a women owned business. Then I’m treated to this on their Insta today.

https://www.instagram.com/p/C1EecNCsc3y/?igshid=ZDE1MWVjZGVmZQ==

Because of course we cannot have a women’s underwear brand who don’t pander to male fetishes, can we.

Pic attached.

OP posts:
Tacotortoise · 21/12/2023 09:37

Sorry but you've lost me. What is the justification for being aggrieved exactly?

SirChenjins · 21/12/2023 09:38

Tacotortoise · 21/12/2023 09:37

Sorry but you've lost me. What is the justification for being aggrieved exactly?

@Helleofabore explains it

LonelynSad · 21/12/2023 09:46

MorningSunshineSparkles · 20/12/2023 18:27

Can’t get worked up over men wanting to wear underpants. I’d rather everyone did tbh but I have a DS who would much rather run about starkers than wear a stitch of clothing even in the middle of winter. (He is clothed usually, but he will randomly strip off without me expecting it. He is a toddler though).

Way to massively miss the point

Tacotortoise · 21/12/2023 09:47

Yes but I'm not following the explanation so hoping for clarification. As far as I can see the company still does everything it ever did for women.

SirChenjins · 21/12/2023 10:03

Tacotortoise · 21/12/2023 09:47

Yes but I'm not following the explanation so hoping for clarification. As far as I can see the company still does everything it ever did for women.

I’m not sure what you need clarified?

Socksforxmas · 21/12/2023 10:03

These "explanations" and "clarifications" haven't really done anything to explain or clarify why some women are so overly sensitive that they demand a female owned brand never expand their range. From what I've seen this one range hasn't taken away from the large collection of women's stuff so this is a very precious think to be offended by frankly.

The idea that the owner callously and viciously deceived anyone is laughable. People are allowed to reconsider business options throughout their career and, while you may not like it, there's not exactly a ton of money to be made from selling exclusively to 'Women with a very specific desire to buy only from female owned brands who share their view that gender non conformity is wrong'.

minicheddars87 · 21/12/2023 10:07

Are we seriously trying to argue that this business was a sort of "safe space" for women who think unmanly men are vile and now these poor bigots are feeling betrayed?

I think I'm okay with that if I'm being really honest 😂😂

Neitheronethingnortheother · 21/12/2023 10:09

Nothing has been taken away from women here. They haven't redesigned their range to fit transwomen and in doing so made it not fit women

They aren't putting transwomen in the women's underwear

Instead they have designed an separate range for trans people. They have extended their products to include more people but in doing so have taken nothing anyway from the offering for women

It always feels like there are two parts to the conversations around trans people. One part, and to be fwir the main part discussed on here, being safeguarding, the need for single sex spaces, women's sports etc. And the other one that occasionally crops up is essentially trans people shouldn't exist. This strays too far into the second one for me

Helleofabore · 21/12/2023 10:10

Tacotortoise · 21/12/2023 09:47

Yes but I'm not following the explanation so hoping for clarification. As far as I can see the company still does everything it ever did for women.

A business could be argued to unethically be using a customer base, ie women and girls, to attract their new customers, males. Women supporting a business previously portraying themselves as ‘ethical’ or ‘just for women and girls by women’ (ie female centred and owned) would have justification to be upset that the business has used them to attract these male customers.

Those are appeals to emotion and brands do this to build stronger consumer involvement in their brand to maintain loyalty. It is very successful. Consumers then start to believe in the brands messaging and they will recommend them to others using that message. And over time consumers feel they are heavily invested in the brand and its success.

If this business was always clearly targeting male people, then no, women don’t have justification to complain.

If this business has used all that previously built up brand loyalty and personal consumer emotional investment to attract male people, then yes. The women complaining are well justified. While it is not their business, the business grew because of women’s recommendations and loyalty.

Would those male people would be even interested in the brand if the brand had always been marketing underwear designed just for them and never for women and girls.

Or is the attraction to the brand that it became so popular with women and girls, that the desire to be part of that group is the driving motivation for purchase? Hence the business has seen an opportunity to leverage their built up assets to expand.

The assets in this case is the highly involved female purchasers who have justification at being upset to be used as a resource by the business in a way that they did not expect. Had those female customers known from the start that their purchase history would be used in this specific way, would they have made that purchase, made that recommendation? Maybe not if they believed they were supporting a female centred brand. Feminists support female centred brands, this of course means that if feminists supported the brand believing it was female centred, they are justified for being upset at a change in direction if it has occurred.

Hence the question, was this brand marketed as being always female centred or not?

Of course, all businesses have the right to change direction and make money. That is business after all. The question was asked why was this a feminist issue and it revolves around how the brand has utilised the female target market. The easy answer is that those unhappy with the change is that they can stop supporting the business.

Tacotortoise · 21/12/2023 10:15

SirChenjins · 21/12/2023 10:03

I’m not sure what you need clarified?

I'm not sure I can put it any more clearly than I did in my 9.37 post.
What exactly is the problem?
Men wearing underwear of a style that is gnc ?
The company diversifying?
What is this "thing" we had that we now don't have?

Tacotortoise · 21/12/2023 10:16

Sorry xpost. Thank you @Helleofabore

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 21/12/2023 10:30

I don't really care that much about the ethics. I was wondering if they would make a gift for someone I know but I can't figure out who these pants are meant for, or who they would suit. They don't even fit the model very well. Saying it's a range for "trans people" is underspecified because "trans people" come in two different sexes and so many different shapes, sizes, and stages of transition (and detransition) If it was "fits men without penises" or "a feminine style for someone with with a penis and a male torso" or "men on oestrogen with penises and a more female distribution of body fat" (or whatever for women in transition the other way) I'd have a better idea. Is their website more helpful?

Helleofabore · 21/12/2023 10:41

Tacotortoise · 21/12/2023 10:16

Sorry xpost. Thank you @Helleofabore

No worries.

It is a business. People purchasing from a business do so for many reasons. However, when a brand uses emotional appeal such as being female centred and growing support that way, if they change direction they have to expect that they will lose customers because of that change as well as gain customers.

I can only assume that if this business has changed direction, that they have done the sums and feel that the male market is more lucrative than just female purchasers alone. It raises another question as to how big this market is in numbers and in purchase power.

MrsSkylerWhite · 21/12/2023 10:44

I’m missing something. They look like 1970s polyester underpants.

FrenchToastLover · 21/12/2023 10:54

Socksforxmas · 21/12/2023 10:03

These "explanations" and "clarifications" haven't really done anything to explain or clarify why some women are so overly sensitive that they demand a female owned brand never expand their range. From what I've seen this one range hasn't taken away from the large collection of women's stuff so this is a very precious think to be offended by frankly.

The idea that the owner callously and viciously deceived anyone is laughable. People are allowed to reconsider business options throughout their career and, while you may not like it, there's not exactly a ton of money to be made from selling exclusively to 'Women with a very specific desire to buy only from female owned brands who share their view that gender non conformity is wrong'.

Precious is absolutely the right word here. Maybe I'm just spoilt with real problems in life but it's laughable that anyone could take offense to this.

PriOn1 · 21/12/2023 11:14

Some women are disappointed with the direction a brand they liked has taken and suddenly they are “precious”, have no real problems, are being “laughable”, are saying “trans people shouldn’t exist” and all kinds of hyperbolic claims.

@Helleofabore has explained it well so I’m not going to add anything, but I do get sick of people saying women are stupid or overreacting when they express disappointment when something they previously liked for whatever reason changes direction. If you don’t care, then that’s fine. Personally I don’t care as I wasn’t even aware of the brand before, but I can understand why people would be. And yes, it’s the way the world is, but we don’t have to like it and we can choose to take whatever actions we want to demonstrate that.

MargotBamborough · 21/12/2023 11:22

I'm not sure what the issue is here.

I don't think the model in the picture is supposed to be a trans woman. That's just a regular man wearing a particular style of underpants clearly designed to be worn by a biological male.

Of course if the company's mission statement is "by women, for women", they might want to rethink their branding if they are planning to branch out into selling men's underwear.

SunRainStorm · 21/12/2023 11:34

I'm sorry, you're offended by the idea of men wearing underwear?

I can't keep up with the nonsense spouted here sometimes.

Socksforxmas · 21/12/2023 13:25

"I do get sick of people saying women are stupid or overreacting when they express disappointment when something they previously liked for whatever reason changes direction." @PriOn1

I don't have to applaud or validate every opinion a woman has in the same way that I don't have to with men. Being a woman is not a get-out-of-criticism free card when you come to a public forum and post something controversial.

I, and all the other posters you're referring to, are entitled to our opinion that OPs opinion is laughable, precious etc

Silencing a group of women you don't agree with in order to defend a group of women you do agree with isn't the feminist move you think it is.

LondonLass91 · 21/12/2023 16:56

All I know is that if this brand honestly think these pants look good - on men or women - I'll not bother looking at anything else they sell. They are absolutely the worst pants I have ever seen.

PriOn1 · 21/12/2023 17:31

Socksforxmas · 21/12/2023 13:25

"I do get sick of people saying women are stupid or overreacting when they express disappointment when something they previously liked for whatever reason changes direction." @PriOn1

I don't have to applaud or validate every opinion a woman has in the same way that I don't have to with men. Being a woman is not a get-out-of-criticism free card when you come to a public forum and post something controversial.

I, and all the other posters you're referring to, are entitled to our opinion that OPs opinion is laughable, precious etc

Silencing a group of women you don't agree with in order to defend a group of women you do agree with isn't the feminist move you think it is.

Clearly nobody is silencing you.

Coming onto a feminist board just to be unpleasant about the women there is shitty behaviour towards those women, but you do you.

PaperWalkAndTalk · 21/12/2023 17:46

Technically this underwear isn't being marketed at men, it's marketed at anyone under the "trans" umbrella.

People who act like "I don't see anything bad about it" clearly know what is going on.

We know that cross-dressers exist, and have always existed (these are men who get aroused by cross-dressing). Many of these brands know this and have sold discreetly to these men before. What has changed is it moving away from being discreet and secretive to actively promoting it, with a lot of men posting photos of themselves in it on these companies social media sites.

There's a fetish around candle wax? Imagine if a candle maker started posted and advertising their products to be used around sexual fetishes. It's rather offputting.

It's the exhibitionism of it that's the problem.

Socksforxmas · 21/12/2023 17:53

PriOn1 · 21/12/2023 17:31

Clearly nobody is silencing you.

Coming onto a feminist board just to be unpleasant about the women there is shitty behaviour towards those women, but you do you.

Clearly nobody is silencing you.

Nah you're just trying to which is completely fine apparently 🙄

This idea that you should only respond to a post if you're in agreement and prepared to champion it is not how online forums like this work.

PriOn1 · 21/12/2023 17:57

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Tacotortoise · 21/12/2023 17:59

PaperWalkAndTalk · 21/12/2023 17:46

Technically this underwear isn't being marketed at men, it's marketed at anyone under the "trans" umbrella.

People who act like "I don't see anything bad about it" clearly know what is going on.

We know that cross-dressers exist, and have always existed (these are men who get aroused by cross-dressing). Many of these brands know this and have sold discreetly to these men before. What has changed is it moving away from being discreet and secretive to actively promoting it, with a lot of men posting photos of themselves in it on these companies social media sites.

There's a fetish around candle wax? Imagine if a candle maker started posted and advertising their products to be used around sexual fetishes. It's rather offputting.

It's the exhibitionism of it that's the problem.

Fetishism (autogenyphilia - sorry can't spell it) may account for a percentage of sales but ultimately men should be allowed to chose underwear to make them feel pretty just like women can if that's what they like. And they shouldn't have to be secretive about it, any more than I need to be secretive about wearing a pair of trousers (something that was once considered extremely subversive and shameful in women).