Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"Transphobic bullying is rife": 15 y/o trans boy's view of coming out at school

1000 replies

ButterflyHatched · 20/12/2023 17:44

A rare and refreshing example of the mainstream media actually publishing a young trans person's own words on the subject of their own existence and how the government's draft guidance is likely to affect the people it directly pertains to.

‘Transphobic bullying is rife’: a 15-year-old trans boy’s view of coming out at school | Transgender | The Guardian

‘Transphobic bullying is rife’: a 15-year-old trans boy’s view of coming out at school

Newton Carey gives his view after draft guidance was issued by the UK government

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/dec/20/transphobic-bullying-trans-boy-view-of-coming-out-school-uk-government-guidance

OP posts:
Thread gallery
30
NotBadConsidering · 21/12/2023 03:45

The other ridiculous thing is the Guardian had learnt nothing about publishing such anecdotes. There’s a myriad of points within this child’s account that could be completely different to the reality if adults involved were asked. The Guardian published Jamie Shupe’s story about being the US’s first legal “non-binary” person, only for Shupe to admit it was all a sham and he has AGP.

The lack of journalistic integrity and editorial standards is shocking to me. An editor has basically said “sure, it’s fine to publish the complaints of an aggrieved teenager without any clarification of facts.” What sort of journalism is that?!

MargotBamborough · 21/12/2023 03:46

ButterflyHatched · 21/12/2023 02:25

This is a bit of a "You can't transition because your life will become too difficult due to the way I am going to treat you." classic here.

Transitioning can help ameliorate debilitating gender dysphoria. This can be addressed in many ways - some of them are connected to an individual's own self-perception and others can be due to how they are perceived by others.

Transitioning won't completely change the way others treat people they perceive to be transgender. This itself can sometimes be a source of dysphoria.

Sometimes transitioning can cause people to be treated as if they aren't trans at all. This doesn't fix the problem of societal transphobia - it just sidesteps it for that individual.

Transitioning young increases the likelihood of a person having a fighting chance of living a life exposed to the least possible amount of prejudice, and means they can potentially do so before they become an adult. It helps avoid a sense of 'missed milestones' and the trauma of experiencing gender incongruity for a large portion of your life. It isn't a panacea but it can help some people a great deal.

This privilege - to appear to be an ordinary person below the notice of those who systematically abuse transgender people as a matter of principle - once gained, can be revoked at any time. You only get to have it once in any social group. Some people don't take advantage of it at all and always disclose their history anyway.

Minority stress remains a lifelong factor regardless.

@ButterflyHatched In the nicest possible way, it is extremely naive to think that transitioning young will allow someone to be truly seen by the rest of the world the way they see themselves.

The "milestones" that teenage girls and young adult women go through are not related to superficial things like wearing nail varnish and makeup. If they were, all girls would do these things.

I cannot think of a single experience that has made me into the woman I am today - not the person I am today, the woman I am today, which isn't directly or indirectly related to the fact that I have a female reproductive system and that society by and large expected me to bear children one day. This would have been the case even if I had never managed or even tried to have children.

I don't know what these "missed milestones" are that you think a boy is going to experience if he is allowed to transition to being perceived as a girl at a young age.

An adult trans person, if they feel there are no changing rooms or showers at the gym which they can use without triggering their dysphoria or causing distress to others, can opt out of these activities. They can get changed for their activity before they leave their house, and get showered and dressed when they get home. It's not ideal but the point is that it is usually possible for an adult to avoid washing and undressing in front of other adults.

Children are in school, where PE is compulsory. Schools can't afford to kit their buildings out with lots of individual showering and changing facilities for children who identify as the opposite sex. And it is very clearly a massive safeguarding risk for children to be allowed to shower and change in the company of children of the opposite sex. The child in the Guardian article says they could have avoided the bullying if they had just been treated as a boy from the beginning, but HOW? A 13 year old female student can cut their hair short and wear trousers and call themselves John, but when they take their clothes off they are still going to have a vagina and budding breasts, rather than a penis. Even taking puberty blockers will not alter that reality.

Telling children that if they transition early they can avoid a lot of "transphobia" is dishonest and harmful. Even if they manage to successfully "pass" as an adult, I think most non trans adults would not want to date a trans person. I am not saying this to be unkind. Our sexualities are innate. If you're attracted to men, you probably don't want to date a man with a vagina or a woman with a penis. People can't help this. It's how we're wired. And of course the evolutionary reason for this, and the reason that gay people are in the minority, is to ensure the survival of the species. Most people want to have kids one day. Even a lot of gay people want to have kids, and thanks to modern medicine they now can, but they will still need a gamete from a member of the opposite sex.

I feel for trans people and the difficulties they clearly experience in life. But transitioning young isn't the way to ensure that your adult life will be easier, in the majority of cases. All it means is that children are encouraged to make often irreversible decisions about their bodies that they later come to regret.

If you really are determined to "live as" the opposite sex as an adult then I can see how "passing" would help enormously. But pumping thousands of confused young children with puberty blockers in order to help the small number of them who would never desist even if left well alone to "pass" as adults is barbaric. The other children, the ones who would almost certainly grow out of it if adults stopped encouraging them to believe they are the opposite sex, are not acceptable collateral damage to help people like you better "pass" as adults. And it's not even clear that it does help. Jackie Green was on puberty blockers from the age of 12 and had surgery at 16 and I can still tell, even in photos.

Honestly, I'm appalled at the idea that safeguarding for all children should be thrown out of the window because some adult trans people believe that if they had been allowed to socially and medically transition at a younger age their life would be much easier now.

And someone needed to sit down with that child in the Guardian article and gently explain that even if you force everyone to use their chosen name and pronouns, even if no reference is ever made to the fact that they were born a girl, even if there was no bullying whatsoever, it still would not be possible to treat them as a boy in any situations where we actually distinguish between boys and girls. That child would most likely have had a much easier and happier adult life if her parents and teachers had simply accepted her as a girl who liked to wear trousers and play sports.

Raxacoricofallapatorian · 21/12/2023 03:46

The argument in the article seems to be that the new guidance will be bad, because schools operating under the status quo badly let this child down.

Really — it's that thin. Not even anything like "my school did such-and-such, and it was bad, and the guidance requires a more extreme version of that/requires all schools to do that", which would at least be an argument.

NotBadConsidering · 21/12/2023 04:02

The argument in the article seems to be that the new guidance will be bad, because schools operating under the status quo badly let this child down.

Allegedly. Says the child. We don’t know the full story because a journalist hasn’t bothered to check and add any details. You only have to read threads on MN in AIBU to know that schools can bend over backwards for people and they’re still not happy. Maybe they did let the child down. But without any corroboration it’s very thin.

Next week in the Guardian:

”I got detention from Miss Smith and I didn’t even DO anything. She’s always picking on me and it’s not FAIR. Here’s how schools can do better.”

FrancescaContini · 21/12/2023 04:04

@NotBadConsidering yes, your final paragraph sums it up: teenager stamps foot and cries “it’s not fair!”

TheClogLady · 21/12/2023 04:27

Pretty sure that the ‘trans boys’ with debilitating spinal erosion and premature tooth loss or drug induced obesity won’t have easier adult lives due to puberty blockers.

The kids who desist or detransition after getting stuck down the gender cul de sac for years, while their anorexia, PTSD or OCD worsens won’t have easier adult lives either.

And the ‘trans girls’ who are administered blockers at the stage of puberty where it accidentally elongates the height growth phase making them even taller than they would’ve been without endocrine intervention won’t have easier lives either, especially if they start early enough to be robbed of their sexual function as well as their fertility.

Most normies want life partners who are capable of having a healthy sexual relationship, which involves having a fully developed adult body (including genitalia). A body that has been artificially stunted at tanner stage 2 or 3 is not a healthy body (and yes, the precocious puberty cohort also suffer serious side effects, and they only experience pubertal delay, not total pubertal blockade).

We don’t let adolescents live independently, drive, vote, drink beer, get married or have a tattoo because they haven’t got a scooby fucking doo about anything yet.

Raxacoricofallapatorian · 21/12/2023 05:40

Allegedly. Says the child.

Who knows what the school did or didn't do in reality, but I was trying to describe how the basic argument of the article came across to me, even when taken entirely on its own terms. To argue that the new thing is bad solely by describing how the thing that it's going to replace has been bad, and not explain how that follows, doesn't make much sense to me. It might make sense if e.g. they described how the new policy solidified or intensified the bad things.

I can see on rereading that the "because" might've caused some ambiguity. I think maybe it came across as my "because", but I meant it as a bit of a distillation of the article's reasoning, IYSWIM, not my own opinion on the school's actions. (Though assuming there's truth in it, I do think the young person may well have been let down, though not necessarily for the same reasons the young person/The Guardian would identify. And if the school permitted transphobic bullying, that would be unacceptable, obviously — though in reality bullying of all kinds seems to be widely accepted.)

Theeyeballsinthesky · 21/12/2023 06:08

the guardian we’re always going to come up with shite like this though. Tbh I assume said child is related to someone at The Guardian - I assume the majority 15 year olds don’t have a hotline to Guardian journalists

They are clearly pushing an agenda. despite what the police & CPS have said about Brianna Grays appalling murder not being motivated by transphobia, the guardian are juxtaposing stories about Brianna alongside stories about how the guidance leaves schools open to to be sued and how ‘transgender children’ are bullied.

They are despicable and we see what they’re doing

PorcelinaV · 21/12/2023 06:20

StragglyTinsel · 20/12/2023 18:26

This is just an anecdote. It’s not even relevant to what the new guidance will do because it’s just one trans identified child speculating and deciding it must make things worse.

And the speculation could have been influenced by what they heard from adults with a particular agenda.

HagoftheNorth · 21/12/2023 06:45

@ButterflyHatched I get the impression that the author of the Guardian article hasn’t even read the guidance before dismissing it. As I’m sure you have read it before commenting, can I ask what were your experiences, and what do you believe would be different under the new guidance?

Also (the question I would most like to have answered by any trans person) given that all men are different, and nobody can possibly know what it feels like to be inside anyone else’s head, what made you decide that the discomfort I assume you were feeling with your female identity meant you actually felt like a man?

NotBadConsidering · 21/12/2023 06:59

Raxacoricofallapatorian · 21/12/2023 05:40

Allegedly. Says the child.

Who knows what the school did or didn't do in reality, but I was trying to describe how the basic argument of the article came across to me, even when taken entirely on its own terms. To argue that the new thing is bad solely by describing how the thing that it's going to replace has been bad, and not explain how that follows, doesn't make much sense to me. It might make sense if e.g. they described how the new policy solidified or intensified the bad things.

I can see on rereading that the "because" might've caused some ambiguity. I think maybe it came across as my "because", but I meant it as a bit of a distillation of the article's reasoning, IYSWIM, not my own opinion on the school's actions. (Though assuming there's truth in it, I do think the young person may well have been let down, though not necessarily for the same reasons the young person/The Guardian would identify. And if the school permitted transphobic bullying, that would be unacceptable, obviously — though in reality bullying of all kinds seems to be widely accepted.)

I agree with you, I was just pointing out that it’s thin on its own terms and that’s before you even get to the fact it’s just a child’s account.

IdealHomeExhibition · 21/12/2023 07:01

HermioneWeasley · 20/12/2023 20:13

So do you think a teenage girl should have been put in to change with the boys, shared accommodation with boys on school trips and played contact sports on the boys teams?

because you are unhinged if you do

This. Also bullying is awful. But it's also bullying to make the other children pretend they think a girl is a boy.

And using the disabled toilet when not disabled but because you want special treatment is ridiculous.

EasternStandard · 21/12/2023 07:10

IdealHomeExhibition · 21/12/2023 07:01

This. Also bullying is awful. But it's also bullying to make the other children pretend they think a girl is a boy.

And using the disabled toilet when not disabled but because you want special treatment is ridiculous.

But it's also bullying to make the other children pretend they think a girl is a boy

Agree with you both

do you think a teenage girl should have been put in to change with the boys, shared accommodation with boys on school trips and played contact sports on the boys teams?

A simple no, I’d question motives of any adult challenging these

MargotBamborough · 21/12/2023 07:20

I mean, at a very basic level this guidance says that schools shouldn't just do what trans identifying kids want them to do.

Is it really any surprise that trans identifying kids might not like it?

Raxacoricofallapatorian · 21/12/2023 07:29

NotBadConsidering · 21/12/2023 06:59

I agree with you, I was just pointing out that it’s thin on its own terms and that’s before you even get to the fact it’s just a child’s account.

Yep, agree. It's just that your post made me realise I might have not been as clear as I could've been.

I guess to be fair, there's room for different kinds of articles exploring aspects of the same issue — rigorous legal or other professional analyses, timelines and histories and explainers of how things got to where they are, opinions of those implementing it day to day, experiences of those with a personal stake, polemics, think-pieces and so on. Not every article has to be balanced or objective or analytical, when there's a broader mix. But when the whole publication takes a very specific, fairly extreme and narrow perspective, IMO it's fair to look at the weaknesses and flaws of what they do post, because we know what the agenda is, and that they're not going to publish anything that probes or contradicts it.

HoneyButterPopcorn · 21/12/2023 08:15

I’d say most kids go through bullying at some time in school.

I know I did. I was ‘too quiet’ apparently.

It seems to me that some schools are getting involved in the bullying of pupils when they are full on stonewall and expect children to pretend that ‘Mary’ in Year one is now ‘Billy’ in year two.

schools need to focus on stopping bullying. Teach kids to not be horrible to each other. Not every week a new rainbow assembly/week/month. Stick to the nuts and bolts.

MyEyesMyThighs · 21/12/2023 08:38

I am cynical that there was any bullying beyond "do you know x is really a girl," "is x saying they're a boy now?" and questions about which group they'd be in for PE, for example. Any actual abuse or names called would have made it into the article as it's very lacking in specifics.

A creepy ass boy at my DDs primary announced he was now a creepy ass girl. He could write an article about being isolated as he decided that, having always hung out with boys, the girls who found him creepy (v touchy feely) must welcome him with open arms. They didn't want to, nothing transphobic about it, they felt exactly the same as before his "transition,"

It doesn't help that kids are told that being misgendered means someone hates you, when it doesn't, that they think you should be erased. Who is telling these kids indifference is hateful, nobody with their best interests at heart?!

ChatBFP · 21/12/2023 08:41

@ButterflyHatched

I really feel for you, because I think that you have been sold the lie of the perfect transition, which makes it all better - you pass perfectly, everyone treats you as the opposite sex in all circumstances and the fact that you are trans doesn't matter and you barely need to think about it for the rest of your life.

I mean, it's possible, but not probable for most trans people.

It is inevitable that a trans person will have to confront the fact that they are not the sex they wish to be from time to time (healthcare, reproduction), that their dating pool may be smaller than those of the chosen sex and orientation, that certain things, like the male/female orgasm, a functioning clitoris (for transwoman) or penis (transman) will not be something they have.

For some, it will still be worth transitioning, but to pretend that transition is a magic process (especially given the long term health implications) is naive at best.

An understanding of the pros and cons is essential to informed consent.

SaffronSpice · 21/12/2023 08:46

I mean, it's possible, but not probable for most trans people.

It is not possible for any trans person.

LadySylviaMcCordle · 21/12/2023 08:48

anyolddinosaur · 20/12/2023 21:32

If you had asked me at 11, 12,13,...if I wanted to change in front of boys the answer would most definitely have been NO! So if children - and I, unlike @ButterflyHatched mean ALL children and not a select few, had been asked I'm quite sure most of the females would also say no. To force girls to accept male children in their changing rooms is also bullying. To try and force someone to use your preferred pronoun is bullying. Why@ButterflyHatched do you not care about the majority of girls being bullied?

Because the world is made up of two people: @ButterflyHatched and everyone else.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/12/2023 08:48

TheClogLady · 21/12/2023 04:27

Pretty sure that the ‘trans boys’ with debilitating spinal erosion and premature tooth loss or drug induced obesity won’t have easier adult lives due to puberty blockers.

The kids who desist or detransition after getting stuck down the gender cul de sac for years, while their anorexia, PTSD or OCD worsens won’t have easier adult lives either.

And the ‘trans girls’ who are administered blockers at the stage of puberty where it accidentally elongates the height growth phase making them even taller than they would’ve been without endocrine intervention won’t have easier lives either, especially if they start early enough to be robbed of their sexual function as well as their fertility.

Most normies want life partners who are capable of having a healthy sexual relationship, which involves having a fully developed adult body (including genitalia). A body that has been artificially stunted at tanner stage 2 or 3 is not a healthy body (and yes, the precocious puberty cohort also suffer serious side effects, and they only experience pubertal delay, not total pubertal blockade).

We don’t let adolescents live independently, drive, vote, drink beer, get married or have a tattoo because they haven’t got a scooby fucking doo about anything yet.

This.

bellac11 · 21/12/2023 08:51

banjocat · 20/12/2023 18:00

This 'guidance' relating to children and young people has been drawn up with no consultation whatsoever with children and young people.

How anyone can take it seriously is beyond me.

You'd almost think its like professionals and grown ups are in charge wouldnt you

Oh wait....

bellac11 · 21/12/2023 08:58

ButterflyHatched · 21/12/2023 02:25

This is a bit of a "You can't transition because your life will become too difficult due to the way I am going to treat you." classic here.

Transitioning can help ameliorate debilitating gender dysphoria. This can be addressed in many ways - some of them are connected to an individual's own self-perception and others can be due to how they are perceived by others.

Transitioning won't completely change the way others treat people they perceive to be transgender. This itself can sometimes be a source of dysphoria.

Sometimes transitioning can cause people to be treated as if they aren't trans at all. This doesn't fix the problem of societal transphobia - it just sidesteps it for that individual.

Transitioning young increases the likelihood of a person having a fighting chance of living a life exposed to the least possible amount of prejudice, and means they can potentially do so before they become an adult. It helps avoid a sense of 'missed milestones' and the trauma of experiencing gender incongruity for a large portion of your life. It isn't a panacea but it can help some people a great deal.

This privilege - to appear to be an ordinary person below the notice of those who systematically abuse transgender people as a matter of principle - once gained, can be revoked at any time. You only get to have it once in any social group. Some people don't take advantage of it at all and always disclose their history anyway.

Minority stress remains a lifelong factor regardless.

Body dysmorphia is what you're talking about

You cant have a gender dysphoria, because your gender is not some fixed thing that you change

And transitioning doesnt address the issues behind why trans children suffer body dysmorphia and for most people that involves ASD, MH trauma and often a history of sexual abuse.

MargotBamborough · 21/12/2023 09:17

I agree that an awful lot of kids, possibly even the majority, experience bullying or feel socially isolated at some point in their school lives.

I think some kids are just born with innate good social skills and others have to figure it out by trial and error. This was something I struggled with a lot at school.

It's really difficult to know where to draw the line and say "this constitutes bullying" though. Physically harming another child? Not acceptable. Name calling or use of derogatory slurs? Bullying. "Misgendering"? It probably depends on the context. It's not kind or necessary to shout, "YOU ARE A BOY!" at a trans identifying child but equally, children shouldn't be castigated for accidentally or absentmindedly using someone's sex based pronouns. Just not wanting to be friends with someone? That's where it gets more complicated. Because whilst I don't think it's OK to, for example, have a whole class party and not invite just one child, and would consider that bullying, I also don't think children should be forced to include another child in their social circle if they just aren't feeling it.

I'm sure a lot of these "trans kids" just feel like they don't fit in anywhere and are socially isolated, and the current trans zeitgeist means that they are encouraged to believe that it's because they should have been the opposite sex. If there are other kids in the school identifying as trans or non-binary with their own LGBTQ+ clubs etc, they get a ready-made family. If other kids are mean to or exclude them, they can say the magic word "transphobia" and expect it to be taken seriously. If a boy wants to be one of the girls he can latch on to their group and they will probably feel they have to include him even if they don't want to, or be accused of transphobia. If all else fails, a trans identifying kid who is still having an absolutely miserable time at school can rationalise it by saying, "it's because I'm trans", rather than looking at alternative reasons and finding solutions such as joining a hobby group to meet like minded people.

I don't mean to minimise bullying at all because I have experienced it and I know how awful it is. But whilst schools should have zero tolerance for bullying and look to promote a kind and inclusive culture generally, to a certain extent feeling socially isolated and like the odd one out at school is really just a form of growing pains, and part of growing up is figuring out how to find your people and be true to yourself in a world where not everyone is going to like you. I worry that trans identifying kids may not be going through that process because they are just blaming all their problems on "being trans".

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.
Swipe left for the next trending thread