"Transphobic bullying is rife": 15 y/o trans boy's view of coming out at school

[ButterflyHatched]

A rare and refreshing example of the mainstream media actually publishing a young trans person's own words on the subject of their own existence and how the government's draft guidance is likely to affect the people it directly pertains to.

‘Transphobic bullying is rife’: a 15-year-old trans boy’s view of coming out at school | Transgender | The Guardian

Whose what?

@Helleofabore still going on the 'but actually every person you have met for the last 20 years must have been lying to you' angle are we? It must be quite the ideological cornerstone! I suppose it's probably safer if you do keep believing that.

Well it does seem evident that since you’ve joined MN it’s the first time you’ve ever had your views challenged. You’ve got to the age you are without ever hearing a different perspective, particularly on the rights of women. Or you have and you’ve ignored it.

As an example you got to the age you are with very odd views on school sport. Clearly no one in the last 20 years has told you what a load of bollocks those views are.

The thing is, butterfly contradicts themself all the time. Not only with actual pieces of information, but in their supposed attitude.

bemoaning their situation on the one hand, but advocating for it on the other.

One thing that is clear is that they are neither female, nor feminist. They are the opposite.

I don't set any store by anything this poster says. They will change their tune depending on what shifting point they are trying to make.

Women don't go around telling other women how still further women keep saying that they are actually a woman. It's not a point any woman would ever make.

Neither do I think it's a point that any man who does genuinely look like a woman would make. They certainly wouldn't make it by claiming how they are constantly hit on. That's a wholly male definition of womanhood.

another socialised male trait would appear to be to get women to comply, on the basis that they've got other women to comply.

butterfly has posted on here loads, and hasn't once changed their stance. They never will. The only useful aspect is showing other women the paucity of these arguments.

And the rest of my post?

Any response to that?

No?

All kinds of bullying is rife. School is a zoo.
Needs to be different schools. And smaller schools. 25 max in a class.

😂
Likely it's the word no that's never been heard. It's a massive problem countering the entitlement of those who refuse to respect boundaries and the rights of women.

As we're fond of saying round here:

No is a complete sentence.

Honestly, at this point I think we should all simply stop engaging with this attention seeking behaviour. It’s like a toddler climbing all over you, throwing things and rolling around the floor screaming for attention. With similar levels of egotism and engagement with reality involved.

There is no point in asking questions or trying to have a conversation. It’s just playing into the making everything all about butterfly’s wants and feeling and experiences agenda.

there is some irony that butterfly started a thread on the pretext that we should listen to a young woman with a trans identity (and relative at the guardian) and still it’s all about butterfly’s feelings and experiences and what would be best for butterfly.

I suspect ignoring this shit is probably the best way to go.

I think the phrase "trans people are real" needs some clarification.

Obviously, people who identify as trans are real people. They exist. But I would like to make a distinction between "people who identify as trans" and "trans people". The latter term suggests that there is a reality to "being trans" which goes beyond a mere identification as "trans". I don't believe that such a reality exists, because I don't believe that anyone is literally born in the wrong body, and it seems that there is no definition of being trans which goes beyond what that trans identifying person claims to believe about their own trans identity.

It is my belief that while "people who identify as trans" exist, that people who are objectively trans do not. Since trans is no more than a state of mind for some people, there is no situation in which this state of mind should override the objective category of sex.

For me, saying "trans people are real" indicates a belief that it is possible to "be trans" in some objective sense. I don't believe that this is possible.

The issue is not that anyone denies that people who have trans identities exist.

It’s that material and social reality hasn’t warped itself to conform to the requirements of those identities.

What is a trans person? What makes them 'different' to anyone else?

I agree with your point - as a mother I would have like to have seen more in this article about the girls parents and why they allowed her to do this transition?
She said that she socially transitioned in last year at primary so year 6 (11yrs ).
In readiness for going to secondary school. There is a brief mention of parents being accepting but no more than that.
An 11yr old has no idea from a personal perspective about what secondary school will be like.
Her parents however do, having been through it themselves.
Why did her parents allow her to go up to school in yr7 as a boy ?
Surely this is the issue here not the schools policies ?
These articles are one sided - negativity towards the school and the school community but nothing about the parents role in this ?
Surely the parents have some culpability here regarding safeguarding issues as well ?
Essentially the way I see it is you are telling your 11yr old that it is going to be fine -
By allowing her to do this what you are saying is - everybody ( the other1000 + )
Pupils in the school are going to accept your new identity - every single pupil that you meet is going to be kind and if you meet one pupil or teacher that misgenders you even if it is unintentional then we will make sure the teacher is disciplined and possibly loses their career and livelihood. We will make sure that the pupil gets consequences.
Basically what you are you are saying to your child is we are going to allow you to do this. We are going to make you into someone that everyone avoids because they fear putting a foot wrong. We are going to make sure that whole school centres around you and your needs and make you unpopular apart from a few other kids with similar issues maybe.
Surely as a mother - you would be wrong to send your child into a situation they can't anticipate because they have not experienced it yet. Telling them the world they are going into will be a utopia of acceptance. Surely it would be better to watch and wait. Tell your child they can act / Dress like a boy at home in private if they want but not to socially transition at school - if you still feel the same way at 18 - you could socially transition before university or work.

Tell your child they can act / Dress like a boy at home

How would this be different from acting or dressing like a girl? Trousers and shirts or t-shirts are normal clothing for girls as well as boys. What does 'acting like' a boy or girl entail?

Perhaps, but very few people agree that gender identity is what makes someone a man or a woman.

Most people don't actually have a gender identity.

It is beyond depressing that it’s nearly 2024 and we are back to ‘girls clothes’ and ‘boys clothes’ and ‘acting like a girl/boy’ as if these stereotypes shouldn’t have been binned decades ago.

I agree, but I’ve found talking (and usually being ignored) by the trans posters on here has been invaluable in sorting out my thoughts on this.

For example reading what Alpha had to say about gender dysphoria completely altered my perception of men who say they have this. That was very informative and probably a mistake on their part.

Likewise reading how Butterfly responds to a thread with multiple questions asking for debate about how we are to accommodate everyone’s needs - essentially ignoring everything that isn’t an opportunity to try to push some emotional response buttons- clarifies for me what TRAs want. And it isn’t any consideration for young people, not even the kids they claim o be speaking for.

So thank you, you’ve not helped and gender questioning kids or anyone else but you and I have got something out of it.

I genuinely think this is one of the reasons why gender geology has been allowed to seep in.

Too many people truly do believe in girls things and boys things. It appears unremarkable to so many. And it's fully held up by society, everywhere you go. And it's getting worse.

Far too many parents would absolutely look askance at a boy who wanted to play with a Barbie.

One of the positive side effects of people talking about transgenderism is addressing the fact that our children are so subject to gender stereotyping.

this is the reason why the language of gender ideology is so gaslighty. The lessons about it are frequently billed as breaking down gender, when they are actually reinforcing it.

look at butterflies hopelessly old-fashioned ideas about what girls and boys should like. And the need to perpetuate them, in order to label them, and then inhabit them.

I think this an interesting point of contention. I do think a very large fraction of society would take your stance, hence no real empathy towards this group, and no will for real solutions.

I believe people can be born in the wrong body and so trans people are real in an objective sense. I have no time to debate this point but something totally needs exploring.
Good day to all.

Helleofabore Today 08:35

°Well, this says this poster knew that they were going into spaces they were not supposed to go.^

It akin the me saying to Pete, "Christ, I hate Terry! I wouldn't care if someone shot him," and Pete telling the cops,

"I haven't done anything wrong! Sinner didn't mind me shooting him, why are you being such awful bigots?"

What does being born in the wrong body mean?

What does a male person who was born in the wrong body have in common with a female person who was not born in the wrong body?

I was definately born in the wrong body.

Mum was beautiful and modelled. Dad was handsome - obviously a man - and had wonky teeth and a bad back. Guess who I look like? Definately some mix up in dispatch.

Agree with this. My husband is quite anti woke and has even less time for any of the gender stuff than I do, but when our son wants to play with dolls or our daughter wants to play with cars it is a non issue.

I wasn't born in the wrong body but definitely ended up in the wrong body!

I see what you mean.

I think the problem is, yet again, that when I use the phrase "trans person" I do not mean the same thing some other people mean when they use the same phrase.

So I guess someone like @ButterflyHatched would use the phrase "trans person" to mean "person who was born in the wrong body and should have been the opposite sex" or "person whose gender identity conflicts with their sex assigned at birth", whereas when I use the phrase "trans person" I mean "person who believes that people have gender identities and that their own gender identity matches that of the opposite sex and makes them more like the opposite sex than their own sex".

A bit like how when Butterfly uses the word "woman" they mean something like, "person of either sex who identifies as female" whereas I mean "adult human of the female biological sex with any or no gender identity".

The fact that words no longer have objective meanings is becoming a real problem.

I think it is helpful to characterise trans as a belief system because then we must ask ourselves why this particular belief system should take priority over other belief systems. And I guess that's why people like Butterfly don't want it characterised as a belief system, but as an undeniable reality.

But when a child who has been allowed and encouraged to play with toys that aren't stereotypical of their sex (as they should be), when they're encouraged to 'think about their gender' it will form some of the backstory to why they may need to identify out of their sex.