"Transphobic bullying is rife": 15 y/o trans boy's view of coming out at school

[ButterflyHatched]

A rare and refreshing example of the mainstream media actually publishing a young trans person's own words on the subject of their own existence and how the government's draft guidance is likely to affect the people it directly pertains to.

‘Transphobic bullying is rife’: a 15-year-old trans boy’s view of coming out at school | Transgender | The Guardian

Well I believe that earlier this year this poster tried this definition.

”identify a constellation of statistically linked attributes - including genotype - that together match a pattern we identify as sex.”

So, being sexually harassed while wearing a bra, seems to fit that definition as well as any other that this poster has tried in the past.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4830797-school-guidelines-on-gender-identitiestrans-out-this-week?page=13&reply=127081358

I don’t believe any person denies that any person exists in their posts on this thread.

However, in your skimming you seem to have missed some foundational concepts. Namely, that laws need to clarify that humans are categorised by sex and that there are instances where sex has direct impact such as safety and via negative sexist discrimination.

While you seem to be glossing over these issues to make the point that poster’s are effectively being mean, others are exposing the very real disconnected thinking that has allowed these breaches of safety and this regression of female sex based protections.

This group of people who have trans identities, deserve the exact same protections that others have for their beliefs. Nothing more.

That a section of society demands their philosophical theory on human life underpins how we structure society, is not rare or unusual. The difference being that this theory rests on subverting sex to prioritise gender which is something felt and is fluid.

That people are who they say they are and that society should behave as if that person is who they say they are.

It seems you are very happy to have someone’s belief system rewrite laws and policies in this way and are now attempting to frame rejection of this as being because we ‘don’t like’ them . When the reality is that it is ‘irrelevant’ whether we ‘like’ them, their demands conflict with other group’s and those conflicts are being discussed here bluntly to cut through emotional manipulation.

Maybe this new Helen Joyce interview will help with identifying the disconnected thinking that we have seen in this thread from one particular poster. The one who declares they are a woman because they apparently look like one.

Humans are not clownfish, and here is some light relief from Francis Aaron.

ButterflyHatched· Yesterday 22:31

I would desperately love for anyone who thinks a 3rd space would be anything other than a godawful abuse magnet in this political climate to engage in even a modicum of critical thought and consider how outright dangerous that road is.

I'm sorry to hear that your own cohort are so dangerous and intimidating for you.

You'd rather use the ladies, despite so many women telling you that they are nervous, intimidated and frightened by your presence. You are entirely selfish and hypocritical on this subject, you want to feel safe, but you couldn't give a tuppenny damn for all the women on whom you have a negative impact.

As long as you're alright and can have what you want, they can do one, even if you claim that that is not your attitude.

You cannot speak for women either, or tell women we need to share women's spaces with men.

“I literally do stand with other women to defend women's rights and facilities.”

This is selectively true.

You, Hatched, stand with only the women who agree with you and you also call this ‘feminism’. It is clearly not true, but to scrutinize it even minutely, means that your constructed life falls conceptually apart.

Firstly, you are a male and therefore you are not ‘standing with other women’. You have forcibly redefined the word ‘woman’ to include you. It doesn’t, it never did and whoever told you it was appropriate, was wrong.

Secondly, just to be very clear, you only defend women’s rights that are of benefit to you. That is not the act of a feminist. You actively ignore the needs of women and girls who need single sex spaces. For instance, you actively ignore the women and girls who have religious needs. Your very presence means that they have to self exclude. Making your statement clearly absurd.

Thirdly, if you truly defended women’s rights and facilities, you would not use any of them set aside to be single sex. The discordance of your very presence in that space makes it then mixed sex is a clear fact that is inescapable. No matter how much you try to obfuscate it linguistically, or philosophically.

This one statement highlights so many facets and layers of the dishonesty that is supporting your arguments.

Oh look, it’s that delicious fear again.

I'm not creating an account to read the rest of that story.

Does it involve a woman thinking she has the moral authority to consent to a male person being in the women's toilets on behalf of the rest of the female population because she's just so kind?

There's no sleight of hand here.

If you are using "men" to mean "male people", i.e. the original definition and not the "gender identity" based one the trans lobby came up with about five minutes ago and are trying to force the rest of society to use, of course trans women are men. Only men can be trans women because if they were women they wouldn't need the trans prefix.

Allowing trans women to use women's spaces makes them mixed sex spaces.

You can't allow trans women who genuinely believe they identify as female and genuinely wouldn't harm anyone without (a) excluding various minority women from those spaces and (b) also allowing all other men in.

There is no magic gender test that enables us to tell the difference between you and Boris Johnson, and no actual way of allowing you to come in but making Boris Johnson stay out even if we could tell the difference.

What an odd post. Of course trans people are real. If they weren't real nobody would care about what toilets they are using.

I just want trans people to use single sex spaces for members of their own sex, just like everyone else manages to.

Their gender identity is irrelevant to everyone else.

None of the women you asked had the authority to speak for all women.

So, Butt as this thread isn’t actually a support thread for you (which you should know, as you set it up) do you have any advice for how ALL children are accommodated in schools, especially with regard to changing for PE (no avoiding communal open plan facilities for primary kids, is there?).

“Well, after I was repeatedly told off by multiple women for being ridiculous and assuming they'd have a problem with my presence, I was convinced to stop asking. As I would expect anyone else in the same situation to do. It would have been ridiculous for me to ask if I'm allowed to enter every toilet I've been in for the last 20 years.”

Well, this says this poster knew that they were going into spaces they were not supposed to go. They allowed some people who wanted to make them feel better to convince then that they should effectively use female people as a shield. This poster knew all this.

I believe they told us these were the very same group of people who told them that they passed, wasn’t it?

When writing this did they even begin to understand and comprehend female socialisation yet? After all these threads telling them the truth.

Here, I will say it again. People who told male people that they can use the female single sex spaces never had permission to tell any male person that and they did it to make that male person feel better. Those giving away permission ignored the needs of other women. They are and were wrong.

Why then would anyone put so much credibility into their assertion that someone passes?

You're right they’re missing female socialisation

I do not want to be asked by random males in a constrained situation. I do want a vote though and the opportunity to influence law.

They have no concept of the fawning reaction either. So they could have and will have likely have mistaken women and girls fawning over them as acceptance of passing and being welcomed into spaces.

However, this is all repeating posts of other threads.

When one believes in “ a constellation of statistically linked attributes - including genotype - that together match a pattern we identify as sex”, reality is not a high priority in their life.

Yeah, when one male individual spends hour, after hour, on thread, after thread, in a space where women clearly don't want them to be, trying to force those women into agreeing they're a woman and accept everything they say, I don't set much store by 'loads of other women agree with me'.

Funnily enough.

Using a live demonstration of an attempt to compel women into abandoning their boundaries to claim other women have abandoned their boundaries probably isn't the smartest thing that butterfly has done today.

@Datun I don't set much store by 'loads of other women agree with me'

Quite - and actually how widespread is this view, really?

Out there in society, how many people think that there are male woman and female women?

If you asked a representative sample of the population, how many would agree that “woman” is a label for a mixed-sex category, with some males and some females?

Should male girls be changing for PE in the same changing room as female girls?

The term 'gender identity' was coined 2.3 Harry Potters ago.

It is as old as 8-track tapes and diet pepsi.

Yet it still has no clear definition. Amazing isn’t it?

Oh I didn't realise it was time for juvenile name-calling already.

It's like his 'immutable sex essence',but the bottle's bigger.

Whose?

Is he sensitive about that sort of thing?

Unfortunately, people are tribal and will stick together with those most like themselves and look out for their own kind. There's little compassion unfortunately to those that are different and hard to understand, especially if it challenges and shakes the foundation of who we think we are and our own identity. Trans people Muslim and Orthodox Jewish women are real, and we don't like that. We rather they continue in hiding because they are inconvenient to our society. Sad

Fixed it for you.

I have been reading with interest, and trying to resist butting in to a conversation which doesn’t directly concern me. Maybe I have something to contribute, but I apologise in advance if this is not helpful,

It has been difficult to understand ButterflyHatched’s viewpoint because information about BH’s history has been leaked gradually and at times has looked contradictory. Is this summary anywhere near correct? BH has a DSD (Partial Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome?) which means that BH is male but naturally looks more female than most men. BH also has had a transgender internal identity for a long time. This combination means that BH both identifies as being under the trans umbrella (with an understandable sympathy for everyone else under that umbrella) and feels that BH has some experience of being perceived as a woman and of misogynistic behaviour from men.

If this is the case, I have considerable sympathy on the DSD front, and I think I have some understanding of the desire to be a woman. The trouble for me is twofold. First, stable verifiable categories (e.g. sex), not fluid subjective categories like ‘gender identity’, must be the basis for the law and for societal norms of behaviour. This is difficult for some people with some DSDs. Second, the usual problems with transgender ideology rear their heads. It is not just trans people who are affected by the demand to make them a special category with special rights, and it is particularly the rights of women, including many vulnerable women, which are in conflict with the demand that trans people uniquely should be permitted to decide that they are members of a category not on the grounds of fact but on their say so. Though it turns out that if self-identified trans people can do that, anyone else can.