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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"Transphobic bullying is rife": 15 y/o trans boy's view of coming out at school

1000 replies

ButterflyHatched · 20/12/2023 17:44

A rare and refreshing example of the mainstream media actually publishing a young trans person's own words on the subject of their own existence and how the government's draft guidance is likely to affect the people it directly pertains to.

‘Transphobic bullying is rife’: a 15-year-old trans boy’s view of coming out at school | Transgender | The Guardian

‘Transphobic bullying is rife’: a 15-year-old trans boy’s view of coming out at school

Newton Carey gives his view after draft guidance was issued by the UK government

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/dec/20/transphobic-bullying-trans-boy-view-of-coming-out-school-uk-government-guidance

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30
MargotBamborough · 29/12/2023 11:36

DialSquare · 29/12/2023 11:33

I wasn't born in the wrong body but definitely ended up in the wrong body!

I definitely believe that I belong in a body with visible abs.

DialSquare · 29/12/2023 11:39

I definitely believe that I belong in a body with visible abs.

You're Transfit!

RedToothBrush · 29/12/2023 11:44

I believe people can be born in the wrong body and so trans people are real in an objective sense. I have no time to debate this point but something totally needs exploring.

Thats a religious belief! You are born. The end. Otherwise you believe in souls and that's religious. And you can't exactly explore a religious belief scientifically. That is just bringing ideology into science which never ends well and doesn't prove anything without bias.

This is essentially the problem.

Genderism is a religious belief based upon rigid inflexible gender stereotypes that restrict men and women.

And instead of having an epiphany that gender stereotypes are bad for people and harm them and cause people to be bullied, a bunch of pharmaceutical companies and plastic surgeons rubbed their hands together and said 'ohhh let's play God' and to hell with evidence based medicine and doing no harm. To hell with all the protections in society for minorities in general.

And we are all supposed to cheer in support about how trans people are real.

Trans people were never something that were in denial. But they have been sold a fantasy to live in that denies the truth. They have a sex that doesn't change. There is no magic fairy dust or essence that puts them in the wrong body.

They've often been abused, bullied for non-conformity, are gay or autistic. But they aren't in the wrong body. They have had the wrong company who have badly let them down by not supporting them to non-conform.

The thing is these gender stereotypes don't ultimately work for trans people nor do they work for women. And really they don't work for a sizeable number of men either.

That's what's depressing to me. The sausage factory nature of trans ideology where everyone must conform.

ApocalipstickNow · 29/12/2023 11:45

I once knew a kid who had been born with her intestines coming out of her body and before she was two she had had loads of operations to fix this.

Was she born int he wrong or the right body? 🤔

(as far as I am aware she is doing fine)

Datun · 29/12/2023 11:48

I believe people can be born in the wrong body and so trans people are real in an objective sense. I have no time to debate this point but something totally needs exploring.
Good day to all.

lol, it's amazing how fast the door always slams, and the hands clamp over the ears with a la la la, following this assertion 😁

RedToothBrush · 29/12/2023 11:49

Can someone PLEASE explain to me why it's mean not to agree to believe a religious belief and why I must be forced to believe it?

Datun · 29/12/2023 11:49

OceanicBoundlessness · 29/12/2023 11:35

But when a child who has been allowed and encouraged to play with toys that aren't stereotypical of their sex (as they should be), when they're encouraged to 'think about their gender' it will form some of the backstory to why they may need to identify out of their sex.

Yes, but that's because the sexism. Dictating what toys they can play with.

But you're right, it does. The entire ideology is based on sexist notions of gender stereotyping.

Lysistra65 · 29/12/2023 11:58

This reply has been deleted

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RedToothBrush · 29/12/2023 12:00

Explain trans people without using gender stereotypes.

Make a legal, usable definition of women which does not refer to gender stereotypes.

Talk about what a trans child is without referring to stereotyped toys or clothes.

EasternStandard · 29/12/2023 12:00

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Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

CHRIS003 · 29/12/2023 12:13

StragglyTinsel · 29/12/2023 11:12

It is beyond depressing that it’s nearly 2024 and we are back to ‘girls clothes’ and ‘boys clothes’ and ‘acting like a girl/boy’ as if these stereotypes shouldn’t have been binned decades ago.

No - I don't believe these attitudes have changed at all - marketing of clothes and toys on the whole seems to still be separated- from what I have seen anyway.
I still don't see many toddler boys in pink dresses playing with dolls prams - may be it is different where you live. Most young mums I see when I am out in town are proudly putting their baby boys in blue and their baby girls in pink but like I said maybe it's different where I live.

OldCrone · 29/12/2023 12:15

And instead of having an epiphany that gender stereotypes are bad for people and harm them and cause people to be bullied, a bunch of pharmaceutical companies and plastic surgeons rubbed their hands together and said 'ohhh let's play God' and to hell with evidence based medicine and doing no harm. To hell with all the protections in society for minorities in general.

Don't forget about people like Norman Spack (who treated Susie Green's child with puberty blockers) that he was "salivating" when he heard about the Dutch doctors who were treating children in early adolescence with puberty blockers.

Dr. Spack recalled being at a meeting in Europe about 15 years ago, when he learned that the Dutch were using puberty blockers in transgender early adolescents.
“I was salivating,” he recalled. “I said, we had to do this.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/17/nyregion/transgender-minors-gender-reassignment-surgery.html

PorcelinaV · 29/12/2023 12:23

ButterflyHatched · 29/12/2023 09:32

The term 'gender identity' was coined 2.3 Harry Potters ago.

It is as old as 8-track tapes and diet pepsi.

Defining "man" and "woman" by gender identity was only invented very recently, at least as it entered the mainstream.

Maybe a few people wanted it 40 years back, but no one (wider society) was taking it seriously at that time.

The mainstream political influence and lobbying is a very new phenomenon.

So yes, we can say this nonsense was "only invented 5 minutes ago".

RedToothBrush · 29/12/2023 12:27

CHRIS003 · 29/12/2023 12:13

No - I don't believe these attitudes have changed at all - marketing of clothes and toys on the whole seems to still be separated- from what I have seen anyway.
I still don't see many toddler boys in pink dresses playing with dolls prams - may be it is different where you live. Most young mums I see when I am out in town are proudly putting their baby boys in blue and their baby girls in pink but like I said maybe it's different where I live.

It's really difficult to avoid these gendered clothes. You even get gendered dinosaur tops!

We managed it until DS was about 18 months but after that it got increasingly difficult. And bizarrely the sizing was different between girls and boys too. Not how baggy they were but the actual sizing. Girls and boys of that age are not particularly different in size. That doesn't kick in until later.

The best places to buy non gendered kids clothing is in Europe. We would make a point of going away and buying stuff there because it's not nearly as badly gendered anywhere in Europe. You can get stuff relatively cheaply. It was much more practical too. The alternative was to order stuff online from European companies not aimed primarily at the British market - but these usually had a premium price.

Seriously, next time you go on holiday, take the time to go into a child clothing store for under 3s or go to a big department store and look at what's on offer compared to here.

PorcelinaV · 29/12/2023 12:31

To be clear, I'm not attacking the "gender identity" concept; but the use of that concept as a definition of man and woman.

That's when it becomes very recently invented nonsense.

StragglyTinsel · 29/12/2023 12:36

Soggycocopops · 29/12/2023 11:24

I think this an interesting point of contention. I do think a very large fraction of society would take your stance, hence no real empathy towards this group, and no will for real solutions.

I believe people can be born in the wrong body and so trans people are real in an objective sense. I have no time to debate this point but something totally needs exploring.
Good day to all.

How can you be born in the wrong body?

Thats quasi religious nonsense. And does it apply if you think your body is too fat, or that your left arm should be amputated.

It’s is just gender stereotypes that are the essential core of people’s souls for you?

Id argue that a genuinely empathetic approach to people who believe they are born in the wrong body is high quality mental health support to come to terms with material reality. Empathy doesn’t mean ‘affirm all their beliefs and give them what they want’.

GailBlancheViola · 29/12/2023 12:47

I've not seen the clips in question (thank fuck) but suffice to say that's disgusting behaviour from anyone and I sure as hell wouldn't want to share a toilet with them.

But you expect us to, you previously said that people should use the toilets they feel most comfortable in and these people feel more comfortable wanking in the women's. Let one man who claims a female identity in and you let all of them in and you are happy with that Butterfly, that is what you are promoting, what you are condoning.

RedToothBrush · 29/12/2023 12:56

The born in the wrong body narrative is so disablitist.

Are people who are disabled born in the wrong body too? Perhaps they should just identify our of it if they dislike their own body.

I'm sorry but everything about this belief has by extension rather nasty implications to other minorities and vulnerable groups.

PorcelinaV · 29/12/2023 12:57

I don't think we are giving up gendered clothing anytime soon, as men and women look good in different things, and people will always want to look good and show off beauty if they can.

Maybe a better society would be less focused on such things, but that isn't going to happen.

Now perhaps I'm a victim of cultural conditioning when it comes to clothing; and beauty standards are subjective, and you could easily have everyone wearing completely different things, or the opposite gender things, and a different society where this was the standard would just be thinking that's what men and women look good in.

But I'm going with (1) women are typically more beautiful than men, (2) there are certain clothes that enhance or display this, and they aren’t going to work for males with a different body type, (3) people quite often want to display the beauty or sex appeal of their bodies.

ApocalipstickNow · 29/12/2023 13:00

I think this an interesting point of contention. I do think a very large fraction of society would take your stance, hence no real empathy towards this group, and no will for real solutions.

I don’t know if you’re still interacting with this thread but I just want to comment on this.

I think there’s quite a lot of people who think the nice, kind thing to do is say (and mean) that trans people should be where they are comfortable, be included in society etc and then stop thinking about how this is achieved or what it involves.

It isn’t lack of empathy towards trans people, it’s looking at practical real life solutions.

As I keep saying, how do we accommodate these kids- absolutely they have a place in the classrooms, no one believes they should not mix with other children. And good pastoral care is needed, many children who is as trans have complex backgrounds and their needs deserve to be met. But how do you take a boy swimming- even if you believe he’s been born into the wrong body- with a class full of girls when they need to share open plan changing facilities? How do you make PE work when you split boys and girls into 2 classrooms by sex after Y3?

If you can’t keep thinking past the point of “include trans people!” you’re not helping anyone and you’re contributing to a situation that effects children who have no opt out if they’re uncomfortable.

WickedSerious · 29/12/2023 13:01

OldCrone · 29/12/2023 12:15

And instead of having an epiphany that gender stereotypes are bad for people and harm them and cause people to be bullied, a bunch of pharmaceutical companies and plastic surgeons rubbed their hands together and said 'ohhh let's play God' and to hell with evidence based medicine and doing no harm. To hell with all the protections in society for minorities in general.

Don't forget about people like Norman Spack (who treated Susie Green's child with puberty blockers) that he was "salivating" when he heard about the Dutch doctors who were treating children in early adolescence with puberty blockers.

Dr. Spack recalled being at a meeting in Europe about 15 years ago, when he learned that the Dutch were using puberty blockers in transgender early adolescents.
“I was salivating,” he recalled. “I said, we had to do this.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/17/nyregion/transgender-minors-gender-reassignment-surgery.html

Creepy.As.Fuck.

ArabellaScott · 29/12/2023 13:04

I believe people can be born in the wrong body and so trans people are real in an objective sense. I have no time to debate this point but something totally needs exploring.
Good day to all.

Well, at least you clarified your own personal belief. I'd agree it needs exploring!

You believe in gendered souls- that's fine. I don't. I believe in biological and material reality; I'm not religious. Other people who follow other religions also find their beliefs in conflict with your belief in gendered souls. How do we reconcile all these conflicting beliefs and non beliefs? Why should the gendered soul belief trump everyone else's beliefs/non belief?

RedToothBrush · 29/12/2023 13:04

PorcelinaV · 29/12/2023 12:57

I don't think we are giving up gendered clothing anytime soon, as men and women look good in different things, and people will always want to look good and show off beauty if they can.

Maybe a better society would be less focused on such things, but that isn't going to happen.

Now perhaps I'm a victim of cultural conditioning when it comes to clothing; and beauty standards are subjective, and you could easily have everyone wearing completely different things, or the opposite gender things, and a different society where this was the standard would just be thinking that's what men and women look good in.

But I'm going with (1) women are typically more beautiful than men, (2) there are certain clothes that enhance or display this, and they aren’t going to work for males with a different body type, (3) people quite often want to display the beauty or sex appeal of their bodies.

How does that work with kids? The over sexualisation of kids, is undoubtedly part of the problem.

Also in terms of clothes for women, I'd welcome them actually being designed for women and modelled by women rather than models who have precisely no curves or aren't 6ft. (Who may or may not be female). I'm not talking about big women either which curvy now seems to be a synonym for these days.

ArabellaScott · 29/12/2023 13:06

Also:

'I believe people can be born in the wrong body and so trans people are real in an objective sense'

'I believe ' does not logically lead to 'objective' . In fact it contradicts the latter. Belief is subjective.

ButterflyHatched · 29/12/2023 13:16

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 29/12/2023 09:47

I have been reading with interest, and trying to resist butting in to a conversation which doesn’t directly concern me. Maybe I have something to contribute, but I apologise in advance if this is not helpful,

It has been difficult to understand ButterflyHatched’s viewpoint because information about BH’s history has been leaked gradually and at times has looked contradictory. Is this summary anywhere near correct? BH has a DSD (Partial Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome?) which means that BH is male but naturally looks more female than most men. BH also has had a transgender internal identity for a long time. This combination means that BH both identifies as being under the trans umbrella (with an understandable sympathy for everyone else under that umbrella) and feels that BH has some experience of being perceived as a woman and of misogynistic behaviour from men.

If this is the case, I have considerable sympathy on the DSD front, and I think I have some understanding of the desire to be a woman. The trouble for me is twofold. First, stable verifiable categories (e.g. sex), not fluid subjective categories like ‘gender identity’, must be the basis for the law and for societal norms of behaviour. This is difficult for some people with some DSDs. Second, the usual problems with transgender ideology rear their heads. It is not just trans people who are affected by the demand to make them a special category with special rights, and it is particularly the rights of women, including many vulnerable women, which are in conflict with the demand that trans people uniquely should be permitted to decide that they are members of a category not on the grounds of fact but on their say so. Though it turns out that if self-identified trans people can do that, anyone else can.

Thankyou! Really didn't want this thread to turn into yet another round of 'grill Butterfly for five pages on whether she really really actually really honestly looks enough like a Real Woman(tm) to experience misogyny, then seamlessly switch to saying that reporting the daily experience of having to deal with it must be some kind of skeevy fetish'. I tried to suggest we skip straight to this part - thanks for choosing to engage in good faith. It is very much appreciated - hope it wasn't too tedious to read.

I think that we have a moral obligation, as a society, to strive for compassionate policies that centre the struggles of vulnerable and marginalised people. I think it is even more especially important to bear this in mind at times like these where the easily-demonised become electorial punchbags.

While it is tempting to angle for segregation on the grounds of genetic markers, I think it is also important to acknowledge the reality of what that actually means. A chromosome isn't a magic jar that contains an indivisible and pure essence of maleness or femaleness.

It's a chaotic, fuzzy and fragile set of templates the body copies and translates when making proteins, the process (and even presence) of which is subject to an enormous range of environmental factors (and constant errors). Sex hormones and their effects are one of these environmental factors and they play an enormous role in how our bodies develop and maintain themselves. A single mutation in a single gene somewhere in the past made my body partially immune to the effects of testosterone and catapulted my life trajectory. I have XY chromosomes which usually cause a particular physical expression, but my body has built itself in a way that is aligned with a different physical expression. It would be patently ridiculous to any person who knows me to say I should use male facilities as I am clearly female. I know it's an edge case, but edge cases are the people who get marginalised by poorly written legislation.

I don't think the presence or lack thereof of sex hormones is a good basis of classification either - any route we take here ends up with an enormous amount of clearly inappropriate collateral.

Since chromosomes don't actually do what they are commonly misunderstood as doing (much to the enduring frustration of biologists), and the presence of hormones themselves doesn't tell us anything about who people are, what classification can we use?

Could we use the historical presence of hormones, or their effects? Well, that automatically excludes most people who medically transition from either category and many intersex people as well. People stuck in waiting list limbo - up to half a decade currently - are going to fall afoul of this one if we go with a 'most recent influence' approach, and it completely fails to account for people who do not medically transition anyway.

What do we do? Do we give up and tell this set of marginalised people they are once again not worthy of consideration? This government has managed a pretty solid line on that stance, especially over the last couple of years, so it's not entirely unexpected alas. I think we can do better though.

What's left? Well:

*Gender reassignment means proposing to undergo, undergoing or having undergone a process to reassign your sex. To be protected from gender reassignment discrimination, you do not need to have undergone any medical treatment or surgery to change from your birth sex to your preferred gender.

You can be at any stage in the transition process, from proposing to reassign your sex, undergoing a process of reassignment, or having completed it. It does not matter whether or not you have applied for or obtained a Gender Recognition Certificate, which is the document that confirms the change of a person's legal sex.*

What's legal sex?

*You must not be discriminated against because:

  • you are (or are not) a particular sex
  • someone thinks you are the opposite sex (this is known as discrimination by perception)
  • you are connected to someone of a particular sex (this is known as discrimination by association)
In the Equality Act 2010, sex is understood as binary being either male or female. It can mean a group of people like men or boys, or women or girls. Under the Act, a person’s legal sex is the sex recorded on their birth certificate or their Gender Recognition Certificate. A trans person can change their legal sex by obtaining a Gender Recognition Certificate. *

I think we should use the legislation that already exists - and was achieved after years of campaigning by the minority group it protects - to cover these situations. It's imperfect though, as it leaves non-binary and non-medical trans people behind. Perhaps if there was some kind of consultation on ways to improve the GRA we might be able to help? Of course, any open process pertaining to the delicate needs of a small minority group would be vulnerable to being swamped by bad faith actors, and there is the danger that it would be taken as an opportunity to have a chip at removing the GRA entirely.

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