"Transphobic bullying is rife": 15 y/o trans boy's view of coming out at school

[ButterflyHatched]

A rare and refreshing example of the mainstream media actually publishing a young trans person's own words on the subject of their own existence and how the government's draft guidance is likely to affect the people it directly pertains to.

‘Transphobic bullying is rife’: a 15-year-old trans boy’s view of coming out at school | Transgender | The Guardian

Yes, another game that women will always lose. Increasingly I just can't be arsed playing with these seedy men.

I don’t think I appreciate you appropriating me.

But here we are.

For clarity I am using this definition of appropriating; to take something for your own use, usually without permission

About a random man who isn’t even here who Butterfly doesn’t even know.

It makes just as much sense as me telling people off for not calling Trump the World’s Greatest President.

It's just another power play.

PS the definition of woman is not ‘experiences misogyny from random man with beer goggles in a pub.’

For clarity I use this definition; woman
/ˈwʊmən/

noun

1. an adult female human being.

Little women know your place and don't use the wrong words. Use the correct language cos I say so.

Look here's an article about kids, who I can't speak for, but I'm going to anyway ignoring all safeguarding concerns.

Here's another article by a woman said, to prove I'm a good trans person who doesn't use women's changing facilitaties. Look how hard I can listen.

When asked directly, why can't women's space's be protected for women and girls and why they aren't prepared to stand up for them: TUMBLEWEED.

It is all about controlling women, directing women, co-opting women and girls and using them as props for identity.

But 3rd spaces would be just that 3rd spaces - not trans spaces but a space where all the women who are happy to give away women's space would go, women with pre teen and teenage sons could go (and vice versa for father's with their daughter's) where men could go. So why would it be a magnet for abuse? No one is suggesting a trans only space.

We're frequently told that gender is fluid so using sex based pronouns rather than gender based ones makes most sense, right? If gender people know that pronouns are based on their sex and not their gender then they can never be misgendered. As we're told that misgendering is even worse than physical violence, that's keeping trans people safe.

‘magic female genetic - or was that natal genital? - sex essence’

Or put simply XX chromosomes

And best of all, none of those nasty terfs will be in there so you can go about your business with all your trans allies telling you how amazing you are and how you're womaning better than them.

No only allies there validating, but also willing sacrificial lambs prepared to be the human shield for the vulnerable men. They’ll have to come up with their own way of determining who is vulnerable and who is dangerous, but they can be left to it.

I’m obviously quite naive here, @ButterflyHatched how was I insulting?

I could only read the first paragraph or so of the article (I would have to sign in with an account I don’t have to access the rest) - the bit where a transwoman shyly asked for very specific permission to come into a female space, ie a space the transwoman absolutely didn’t feel an automatic entitlement to. Interesting that you should use that example rather than the transwomen who post clips of themselves wanking in the ladies’ loos.

I didn’t see any answer to my question

I take it you disagree with Natalie S. Oho then.

I've been that terrified trans girl peeking round the corner of a door asking if she's allowed to come in. She absolutely nailed that dynamic - what it feels like; why that safe haven is such a big deal, and why transphobia is so ridiculous and worthy of contempt.

I literally do stand with other women to defend women's rights and facilities.

So you don’t feel an automatic entitlement to enter female spaces either Butterfly? Why on earth would you support offering that to men (you do realise that not everyone who says he’s a transwoman actually is, I guess?)

So why are you saying that kids should socially transition so that girls lose their rights!!!?!

You are full of nothing but complete bullshit and are incapable of maintaining a coherent argument for 2 minutes.

A third space would be a safe haven as nobody would need to ask permission to come in. No need to be terrified as it's for everyone

Is there any actual evidence that gender neutral facilities, in addition to men's and women's, have resulted in problems in the real world?

Of course, even if there were issues with having an additional gender neutral option, that would need to be considered against problems and fairness of either (1) everyone keeps to biological sex, or (2) you have people identifying into the opposite sex.

It's just another oblique 'trans women are men' sleight of hand and I'm not playing, sorry.

The article is really beautiful and hit a nerve both for myself and for my mother and aunt who've both been there with several trans girls. I'd say it's worth registering a free account to read the whole thing, but of course I'm biased!

I've not seen the clips in question (thank fuck) but suffice to say that's disgusting behaviour from anyone and I sure as hell wouldn't want to share a toilet with them.

We know that transwomen use the gents safely and without being hassled because they have told us. If they are safe in the gents then they will be safe in a mixed sex space

I'm guessing that it would result in the loss of single sex provision. This reducing the capacity of single sex provision. Whilst possibly not reducing demand for single sex provision in line with available provision. This meaning bigger queues for women due to less single sex provision.

I believe that theres been a few posters who have talked about how this has been happening in schools where they've done this: the kids don't want to use the mixed sex facilities and so the single sex ones are rammed whilst the mixed sex ones are deserted. Whether this is documented in evidence I don't know.

Well, after I was repeatedly told off by multiple women for being ridiculous and assuming they'd have a problem with my presence, I was convinced to stop asking. As I would expect anyone else in the same situation to do. It would have been ridiculous for me to ask if I'm allowed to enter every toilet I've been in for the last 20 years.

I don't give it a moment's thought anymore - it's the most normal, ordinary thing in the world.

I'm aware it's perfectly possible for terrible people to take advantage of the kindness and goodwill of others, and I'm always on the wary lookout for it.

I'm sorry, can we move on from the cross-examination now? It's just rather one-sided to have everything you say challenged while also being asked to defend stances you don't actually hold.

I've skim read most of the thread and get the general gist.

There's a lot of deliberate misunderstanding and misrepresentation of ideas and arguments.

Unfortunately, people are tribal and will stick together with those most like themselves and look out for their own kind. There's little compassion unfortunately to those that are different and hard to understand, especially if it challenges and shakes the foundation of who we think we are and our own identity. Trans people are real, and we don't like that. We rather they continue in hiding because they are inconvenient to our society. Sad.

Perhaps, but I think @ButterflyHatched was suggesting that people using the gender neutral facilities would be at risk of harassment. Something along those lines.

By "we rather they continue in hiding" do you just mean that people want to protect single sex spaces and sports?

For example, I'm fine with trans women taking part in sport. I don't want them "in hiding".

But of course they should be competing according to biological sex and not "gender identity", because gender identity is irrelevant to sports performance.

Trans people being "real" doesn't override the fact that biology is also real.

Is it really that people lack "compassion", or that one side is making unreasonable demands and trying to impose their own way of thinking?

The points made in this post (and others before it) cannot be made often enough it seems.

There is such a fail in logic with each of Butterly’s posts. It is like deja vu each time they visit because we all keep calmly pointing out the inconsistencies, the logic flaws, the complete self centredness and the rank hypocrisy. Then they disappear for months and then return and we do it all again.

Each time, more readers gain a much deeper perspective about this.