"Transphobic bullying is rife": 15 y/o trans boy's view of coming out at school

[ButterflyHatched]

A rare and refreshing example of the mainstream media actually publishing a young trans person's own words on the subject of their own existence and how the government's draft guidance is likely to affect the people it directly pertains to.

‘Transphobic bullying is rife’: a 15-year-old trans boy’s view of coming out at school | Transgender | The Guardian

Whilst still refusing to answer why UK schools should have mixed sex changing rooms instead of looking for another solution.

it’s not good enough.

We don’t sort this out with sad stories. We sort it by being grown up and honest and looking for the best for everyone.

Please spare me the disingenuous posturing about being pushed out of society. I have had to hide what I am for 20 years to escape being pushed out of society.

The fact certain people treated you appallingly in the past, Butterfly, does not give you the right to treat other people, who had nothing to do with your treatment in the past, appallingly. That is how tyrants also justify their behaviour.

@ButterflyHatched is it ok for all open changing rooms (ie no cubicles) to be mixed sex spaces? If not, why not?

This isn’t intended as some sort of gotcha, I genuinely want to understand your position

It is very obvious that no other solution will do, though.

That is the ridiculousness of the entire suggestion of ‘middle ground’.

And again, someone declaring they are feminist, while missing the entire point of feminism’s collective nature and being female centered. Declaring they have safeguarding knowledge while advocating for mixed sex spaces and the eradication of single sex spaces for women. And declaring they are a ‘woman’ when they are male and always have been male. Has no other solution because they demand women bend to their needs and accept them into single sex spaces.

All we can do is calmly keep repeating that this is the end goal. Because someone who is so revered by their community, an elder no less, would have a list of solutions and be able to the discuss each with a depth of knowledge and evidence to support.

But we don’t see any of that. Because there is nothing else.

You know what is fascinating on threads like this?

When you are personally replied to and asked to explain something, so you do.

And then that response is totally ignored because it's a reasonable response which points out that you need to impact assess any changes so that other groups aren't adversely affected in a significantly negative way and that all changes must be proportional for that reason rather than just unilaterally imposed because one group likes them and has the power to do so.

Instead the conversation is deliberately moved on with an appeal to emotion about awful the world is for this one group - without the slightest thought or effort to consider how the world treats other groups.

It is the massive self centring and total lack of self awareness or consideration for others that really stands out time after time.

It is always me, me, me and to hell with anyone else.

Unfortunately for them that's not how the world works and there is a need for multiple interests and groups to all be considered in terms of how law changes affect them.

Bullying is not ok. Abuse is not ok. However safeguarding remains important. Ideological overpromises and lies are harmful. And impacts on others must be considered. And as I say, you ultimately can never run away from who and what you are, because of the internal pressures and this is important because even if you do resolve many of the external issues, the internal ones persist. The constant blaming everyone else for how awful the world is, is often a response which enables those internal issues to be deliberately avoided.

See this is what pisses me off.

we are always being told that the younger generation (esp girls) are so welcoming of trans people and it’s just us middle aged old bags with a problem.

But it’s a half truth.

Of course there are lots of girls who are accepting of transpeople- I would expect and encourage my daughter in that if and when she is classmates with a trans identifying child. Just like I expect her to judge everyone- to quote Martin Luther King- on the content of their character.

But accepting, even being good friends with does NOT equal feeling comfortable undressing with. I wouldn’t expect her to welcome any other of her male friends into change for PE with her and the other girls no matter what their reasons- even if those reasons are they are being bullied. I would expect the school to come up with a sensitive solution that means the needs of everyone.

And this is where the TRA bullying and shaming comes into full force. The demands that transgirls are seen EXACTLY like girls. So girls have no avenue to say, actually I don’t feel right with this. I’m uncomfortable and unhappy. I care about this person but I can’t undress around them. And time and time again when the reality of the situation strikes this is what children and their parents start to feel.

We see posts here from new members saying “I’ve always been ok with transpeople but my daughters are sharing changing facilities with boys and no one feels right about it. What do I do?” And it’s clearly upsetting people who care about transpeople but also want their own children to feel ok.

And this is never addressed. It’s not transphobia for children (or adults) to wish to not be in a vulnerable state around the opposite sex. Ignoring that fact isn’t helping anyone. It just shows TRAs up as selfish bullies who will use any tactic to get what they want.

Ive said before I’m willing to discuss solutions that work to preserve everyone’s dignity and feelings. This is what schools have to do. We have to be the adults. Not point to other countries and say how much worse they are for transphobia so girls in the UK should shut up and put up. That argument makes no sense.

Give me a real conversation. This is a live issue in many schools, lots of us will be dealing with the fallout for years.

Be an adult, pack your emotional blackmail away and let’s consider the needs of everyone.

Go on, it’s Christmas.

Who says the younger generation are fine with it?

It's harder for those over 18 to say anything because of fear of being ostracised by their peer group.

And under 18 lack power and agency to actually say or do anything anyway.

There is plenty of unhappiness about it. I point out the social conditioning about privilege and how young women have actively been taught to supress their privileges because they otherwise they are imperialistic bastards etc.

And there's the element of lack of experience about the degree to which it impacts in life. Until you have lost out of a job because you are female, you've been treated appalling in hospital because you are female and don't matter or you suddenly become aware of safeguarding because you are trained in it / you have your own children. It's a blind spot through your late teens and early twenties when it is just about toilet cubicles and nothing more...

”Who says the younger generation are fine with it?”

It’s the standard TRA line. I know surveys don’t back it up but I think school kids are probably more relaxed about trans identities than when I was young, simply because there’s greater visibility (how many of us went to school with anyone transitioning in any way? I bet it’s close to, if not actually zero)

but that still disguises the fact that most people don’t have an issue with people with gender dysphoria- I’d imagine the majority of the UK is “live and let live” as it is. But it doesn’t mean unisex spaces are wanted by anyone.

There’s a massive difference between being happy to sit with a trans kid in class and get changed for swimming with them.

I don’t think we’re really saying anything in disagreement redtoothbrush

This

its obviously too difficult to be truthful and say that you do disregard those women for whom its impossible to share those spaces with a male

Can’t answer this one either….

Don’t forget the constant twists to claim victimhood too. I don’t doubt there has been very real issues and harm experienced, however some posters twist to victimhood to deflect answering questions that they know cannot be answered without exposing the reality of the demands.

Including trying to frame those pointing out the tactics being used as being hateful.

These threads are great for seeing the intricacies of DARVO demonstrations.

As always I marvel that any man can come on here and be as tone deaf as to lecture women on what it’s like to be discriminated against or what it’s like to be afraid

.

Butterfly originally claimed to have transitioned as a child, then been happy and fulfilled as a transsexual for the next 20 years. This is used to justify their position that children who identify as transsexual should be medicated.

Now Butterfly claims this:
I have had to hide what I am for 20 years to escape being pushed out of society.

If butterfly's earlier statement is true, then this can't also be true. Although it's not clear what butterfly has been hiding or thinks they have been hiding for 20 years.

Quite. The space, including this one, is irrelevant. Butterfly doesn't want to discuss feminism or its relation to sex and gender. The title of this board.

It's the women in this space that are being used. (In my opinion, obvs).

Give me a real conversation. This is a live issue in many schools, lots of us will be dealing with the fallout for years.

Be an adult, pack your emotional blackmail away and let’s consider the needs of everyone.

This can't happen, because butterfly's presence on this thread is about invading the space, saying untrue and deliberately goady things like I'm a lesbian and a feminist - to lesbians and feminists, and thoroughly enjoying talking all about themselves to an irritated audience.

We are the resource being used. That's why questions don't get answered and the conversation doesn't move on. Indeed it hasn't moved since butterfly's first ever post. Butterfly has just acquired more ways to tell everyone off.

'I get told i'm derailing, I get told I'm this, I get told i'm that'.

It's just more fodder for the complaints.

Butterfly contradicts themself all the time, depending on what point they're trying to back up.

We've had how they pass seamlessly, have loads of friends, travel the world, but also how they spend their entire time in crippling isolation seeing only doctors.

It's a self-serving and very movable feast.

I have had to hide what I am for 20 years to escape being pushed out of society.

• *not the sort of memo most TRAs want sending to indoctrinated kids.

You’d think that if your father was from a country where it was illegal for you to exist (or to ‘express your gender’ in clothes etc to be more accurate), you’d be more focused on that aspect of things in your activism.

But no. Lecturing British feminists on how bigoted they are over single sex changing rooms and complaining about DfE guidance for schools in England is where this activist chooses to focus.

The mind boggles.

'I get told i'm derailing, I get told I'm this, I get told i'm that'.

It's just more fodder for the complaints.

When you identify as a victim, you need to engineer examples of your victimisation.

Datun, its my point about the external v internal. Even if all the external were removed, there'd still be a need to blame everyone else because otherwise they'd be forced to deal with the reality v whats in their head that can not be forgotten.

We are essential to be the 'reason' for the anguish. Not reality.

You are speaking from a position of entitlement and a false sense of superiority that probably arises from being raised as a male. You clearly don’t care about the safety and dignity of people of the female sex. If you did you would listen to what all the other posters are saying and be considering changing your stance.

In this country, do we think its women or men who make the law?

Now consider who the OP has an issue with. Is it men or is it women?

It looks an awful lot like sexism to me.

2. Women saying no to men is a hate crime.
3. Women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish
5. Women and Feminism must be useful to men or they are worthless.
8. Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are.
11. Whatever women suffer from, it is worse when it happens to men.
14. Women have all the rights they need: The right to remain silent.
16. Everyone owns and controls women’s bodies except the women themselves.

I agree. Although, personally, I can't think of a more counterproductive way to spend one's time than fruitlessly picking at people you believe are responsible for your internal anguish.

It's giving butterfly something tho, otherwise they wouldn't do it.

I'm guessing it's along the lines of hope that we will be upset by it, or our minds will be changed, or we will be forced Into compliance.

Either way, it's not a conversation. It's a demonstration.

Yes 👏 👏👏 Being on a board for female feminists is invading our virtual space.

Butterfly’s feeble arguments have been thoughtfully and comprehensively dismantled and they are wasting our time. I’m ducking out of this thread because I have better things to do.