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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"Transphobic bullying is rife": 15 y/o trans boy's view of coming out at school

1000 replies

ButterflyHatched · 20/12/2023 17:44

A rare and refreshing example of the mainstream media actually publishing a young trans person's own words on the subject of their own existence and how the government's draft guidance is likely to affect the people it directly pertains to.

‘Transphobic bullying is rife’: a 15-year-old trans boy’s view of coming out at school | Transgender | The Guardian

‘Transphobic bullying is rife’: a 15-year-old trans boy’s view of coming out at school

Newton Carey gives his view after draft guidance was issued by the UK government

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/dec/20/transphobic-bullying-trans-boy-view-of-coming-out-school-uk-government-guidance

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IdealHomeExhibition · 25/12/2023 09:16

Boomboom22 · 25/12/2023 09:07

Completely agree. Do watch out though, last time I fully engaged with this one I had a ban for a time. I said the usual.

I'm sure I would rather fully engage with a bout of the runs

FrippEnos · 25/12/2023 10:00

ButterflyHatched · 25/12/2023 01:34

Sorry, I keep getting accused of derailing threads and/or talking too much as is to be anything but extremely selective of what I respond to - don't forget that whenever I post I then get a stack of 10+ responses - not to mention it's Christmas, I have a stack of notifications just from this thread alone and I'm not exactly doing this for fun.

Do the wishes of people who are prejudiced against a particular minority usually get given priority over said minority in the event of a conflict of interest?

Unfortunately, they often still do - but in theory, they shouldn't. So that's my answer.

Merry Christmas.

And yet no-one is stopping trans people from doing any activity that they want to do.
Whereas a transwomen in a women's changing room stops women from playing sport.
A Transwoman in a rape crisis group stops women getting the help that they need.
A transwoman competing in women's sport can stop women getting scholarships to colleges.

ApocalipstickNow · 25/12/2023 10:23

“...or maybe people use the facilities they are most comfortable with?”

Where does that leave women and girls who do not feel comfortable around males?

Where are the facilities for them?

Helleofabore · 25/12/2023 10:25

Boomboom22 · 25/12/2023 09:07

Completely agree. Do watch out though, last time I fully engaged with this one I had a ban for a time. I said the usual.

a ban? Blimey that is harsh as regular who mostly keeps within the guidelines boomboom.

Helleofabore · 25/12/2023 10:29

ApocalipstickNow · 25/12/2023 10:23

“...or maybe people use the facilities they are most comfortable with?”

Where does that leave women and girls who do not feel comfortable around males?

Where are the facilities for them?

Well obviously, apocalips, that is exactly the ‘prejudice’ that poster is referring to. Apparently, that is due to the prejudice that some
female people don’t like some male people.

Nothing to see here, just move on apparently.

SamW98 · 25/12/2023 10:34

Do the wishes of people who are prejudiced against a particular minority usually get given priority over said minority in the event of a conflict of interest?

Why is it that wanting to protect single sex spaces for women and girls is always twisted as ‘prejudice’? There is no conflict of interest to want men kept out of women’s spaces - sport, changing rooms, rape crisis centres, lesbian dating events - whatever the space, women and girls rights for these to be single sex should always be prioritised over men’s demands that it’s not fair they’re not included.

That’s not prejudice, it’s correct safeguarding and I don’t know how we’ve got to a place where to want women’s single sex spaces protected is seen as bigoted

MrsOvertonsWindow · 25/12/2023 10:44

Repeating a comment I made when this thread started:

The brilliant thing about the guidance is that it addresses the needs of all children in schools. It specifies that there is no group that has the power to negatively impact on others - that "rights" "demands" "wishes" must be balanced against those of other groups and individuals. It's a refreshing change to see a government (that has until now funded these organisations in imposing their beliefs on children) to draw a line and say no more.

I'm glad that the Guardian gave that 15 year old the space to speak about their experiences. I'm sure they'll next be offering a platform to the girls forced to undress alongside random males in their changing rooms, the girls assaulted by boys in mixed sex toilets along with those who refuse to use illegal mixed sex toilets in schools causing them physical harm.

And just a reminder - no women or girls anywhere were consulted about whether we consented to have our sex based rights removed, let alone our language changed and our teenage daughters gaslit that they could opt out of their pubertal angst with drugs and surgery and "become men".

Women, parents and most men aren't budging over safeguarding children - not on Christmas Day or any day.

TheClogLady · 25/12/2023 11:11

The minute a male steps into a female single sex space it’s no longer a female single space.

’prejudice’ doesn’t come into it, it’s pure material reality.

humans can’t change sex, males can’t be females, males must stay out of single sex spaces for females or the single sex space will cease to exist.

Tatumm · 25/12/2023 11:11

Heartened by all of the sensible comments on this thread. 👏👏👏👏

Helleofabore · 25/12/2023 11:21

And again for those who lack any perspective of the female child and teen development, it is rather common for girls to hate dresses, I did and still do. It is rather common to be good at sport, I was excellent at sports that at the time were, in reality limited to male only because of sexist discrimination, but I loved them over what were considered female sports. I even bowled boys out at cricket.

Still not a male. Despite saying exactly to my mum that I wanted to be a boy and I even had a boy’s name picked out. Still not a boy.

This article was posted as a gotcha to portray the govt education guidance as being harmful for children. Considering just how many women post on this board with similar experiences of gender dysphoria at the age that this child is recounting their experiences, I think that any male person using this female person’s experience in this way is purely politically motivated for progressing the transgender end goal that ultimately is about male people being accepted as ‘women’ because they demand it. It is a thoughtless attempt that is devoid of understanding about girls and women’s experiences.

The current guidelines do allow safeguarding for all children not just a select few.

Have we had any answer to the ultimate question? That of :

Who ultimately benefits from perpetuating the myth that not liking dresses, having interests that as sexistly considered ‘male’ and who suffers from gender dysphoria means that a girl is actually a ‘boy’? Who benefits from that past the asserted ‘that female individual’? Anyone want to posit an answer?

RedToothBrush · 25/12/2023 11:34

Bottomline: you can't run away from who and what you are. You have to learn to come to terms with it.

If you want to dress differently I think that's fine. And bullying for that it's NOT ok. That should be punished.

But forcing others to lie isn't ok. Or forcing kids of the opposite sex to share facilities. Nor is facilitating children to believe they can be something they aren't and go on a medical pathway and have false expectations.

I'm sorry but it's inappropriate for under 18s and there are still issues with over 18s.

SabrinaThwaite · 25/12/2023 11:35

I grew up in England in the 1970s, and never conformed to cultural and social stereotypes - I don’t even remember gender non-conforming being seen as a thing? Maybe it was that collision of post 1960s feminism, glam rock, punk and then New Romanticism that resulted in stereotypes being broken down and ignored.

It seems that we’ve regressed so much with gender being so rigorously policed and non-conformists being told that there’s something physically wrong with them that has to be fixed.

HoneyButterPopcorn · 25/12/2023 11:43

I was an 80s teen. Used to club (gay nightclubs mostly) wearing ball gowns, DMs and had a buzz cut. Lord knows what todays twerps would have made of that.

TheClogLady · 25/12/2023 11:48

Pretty much all the youth movements since the 1970: have been unisex/non-gendered.

Very little difference between a female Ted and a male Ted or a female Punk and male Punk or a female Scene Kid and a male Scene Kid (except for biological sex, and perhaps volume of eyeliner)

The GenderWoo has taken us back to before I was born and I’m decidedly middle aged.

"Transphobic bullying is rife": 15 y/o trans boy's view of coming out at school
"Transphobic bullying is rife": 15 y/o trans boy's view of coming out at school
"Transphobic bullying is rife": 15 y/o trans boy's view of coming out at school
Helleofabore · 25/12/2023 11:51

Bottomline: you can't run away from who and what you are. You have to learn to come to terms with it.

yes. The fuckwittery of the concept of living in a world where what you say you are is reality is the very opposite to ‘living authentically’. Yet we are told this is ‘literally’ living authentically. Living a life that ignores material reality and desperately relies on every other person in the world affirming a falsehood.

The fact that policies and laws are being created to allow this is the issue. If there wasn’t this demand being followed by such changes that are harmful to others being enacted, we wouldn’t be stuck in this constant demand for our attention fighting these weak and false premised ‘gotchas’.

Female teenagers are not fucking political resources for males who declare they are community leaders and who are proud to influence the outcomes for children and teenagers based on their unique male history and medical issues and not shared motivations for transition.

It cannot be said often enough.

cansu · 25/12/2023 12:10

I am struck that the young person was annoyed that the head contacted his parent first. We contact parents if they won't wear a tie or have a detention for being rude so it seems that it would be bonkers to not let them know that their child wants to change their name and gender!!

It is also striking that the child talks about disliking dresses etc. Somewhere along the road we have come to see this being suggestive of trans rather than as someone who has different tastes.

Dealing with bullying by the book is not a bad thing and in fact is the only way schools can deal with it. They have to follow their own policies and procedures. I am not sure what the child means here. If someone alleges bullying it has to be investigated.

WickedSerious · 25/12/2023 12:25

ButterflyHatched · 25/12/2023 01:38

...or maybe people use the facilities they are most comfortable with?

Hell of a lot of putting words into my mouth going on here.

Nope,everyone uses the facilities that correspond to their biological sex,their delusions are irrelevant.

ApocalipstickNow · 25/12/2023 12:41

I mean, can we get some explanation from Butterfly on this?

As an adult I can vote with my feet (and bank account). If my gym goes unisex changing I can either not change there or leave the gym. But what does my daughter do?

If issues with gender identity are a mismatch between inner sense of self and outer physical body (and that is what we keep getting told) then please explain what my daughter (or anyone else’s daughter) does when it’s PE or swimming and there is a boy who identifies as a girl there? She’s 10 btw so shouldn’t be in mixed sex changing. What does she do when she’s in high school? She can’t opt out- I can’t pull her from PE and if I did there’s physical ramifications to that (not to mention there’s a legal requirement for PE provision).
And it might be rare, but in the last 5 years I’ve worked with 2 trans kids and 1 they/them and we are not a middle class/cosmopolitan area.
So what does she do? Change in a toilet because she doesn’t want to undress in front of someone who looks no different to the other boys in class, bar their clothes and hair? Why? What happens when it’s 2 girls? 5 girls? 10? 15 or more?

Shouting bigot and saying it’s discrimination isn’t enough- the girls are the ones being discriminated against. What then?

RedToothBrush · 25/12/2023 12:48

WickedSerious · 25/12/2023 12:25

Nope,everyone uses the facilities that correspond to their biological sex,their delusions are irrelevant.

Where does it leave Muslims and Jews?

Which facilities do they 'feel most comfortable' in?

Oh yeah that's right - none because there are non available to him.

TheClogLady · 25/12/2023 13:10

Not those minorities, Red!

Transactivists only care about people with gendery beliefs, women with boring old fashioned religious beliefs are shit out of luck in the Brave New World.

MargotBamborough · 25/12/2023 13:20

ButterflyHatched · 25/12/2023 01:38

...or maybe people use the facilities they are most comfortable with?

Hell of a lot of putting words into my mouth going on here.

So how does that work if the facilities trans girls feel most comfortable using are the ones that have girls in, and the facilities girls feel most comfortable using are the ones that don't have any male students (including trans girls) in?

Or is it only trans people that get to feel comfortable?

TWETMIRF · 25/12/2023 13:27

Butterfly is using Butterfly's trans privilege to harass women in their supposedly single sex spaces. The trans privilege means that calling them out will result in punishment for being transphobic and all the danger to women that entails. Normal men would be embarrassed if they were found in women's toilets as it would most likely be a genuine mistake but Butterfly does it deliberately as Butterfly knows the magic words give Butterfly all the power

ApocalipstickNow · 25/12/2023 13:56

Why can’t children with gender incongruity (?) use facilities that match their sex? What’s the issue there?

It can’t possibly be any more outing than using opposite sex facilities?

Im not in agreement with “no debate”. I’m not even saying kids should have to change with others of their sex if there’s a problem for them. Schools can find another way. Stonewall can bung us a few quid to help maybe. But I can’t honestly see why a trans kid can’t change with their same sex peers. I’m listening but I need convincing.

RedToothBrush · 25/12/2023 17:17

MargotBamborough · 25/12/2023 13:20

So how does that work if the facilities trans girls feel most comfortable using are the ones that have girls in, and the facilities girls feel most comfortable using are the ones that don't have any male students (including trans girls) in?

Or is it only trans people that get to feel comfortable?

Edited

Only trans people are allowed to be comfortable.

Everyone else can be forced out completely, feel exposed and vulnerable or guilty for not feeling comfortable. All because they have to suck it up or get abuse for being transphobic.

We know how this really is.

EasternStandard · 25/12/2023 17:21

MargotBamborough · 25/12/2023 13:20

So how does that work if the facilities trans girls feel most comfortable using are the ones that have girls in, and the facilities girls feel most comfortable using are the ones that don't have any male students (including trans girls) in?

Or is it only trans people that get to feel comfortable?

Edited

It’s even worse that adults are ok with female children, or any children feeling uncomfortable. Or gaslit

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