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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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28
EasternStandard · 03/02/2024 16:22

It’s important adults do not lie to dc about biology and I’d prefer my dc not to be around that falsehood

It doesn’t mean cruelty of course not

A lot of what happens under gender ideology is a safe guarding fail. Sadly

RethinkingLife · 03/02/2024 16:23

I think you're right that there is an 'any port in a storm' element to the role of hate speech and discriminatory attitudes in bullying - but those are still learned behaviours.

If you've resolved the nature vs nurture debate, I look forward to the announcement of a major prize across several areas of science in addition to philosophy and faith.

ButterflyHatched · 03/02/2024 16:23

devilsice123 · 03/02/2024 13:57

I work in a School with teenagers and some of the comments they make, do make me scared that they will do something horrible. All you can do is report it. But these kids are learning it from friends and family. Also off the internet. They love to watch people fight and most kids will try and film it if they can. It makes me sad because I grew up in the 90's and I'm sure the levels of hate were not there then. Obviously we didn't have many trans children then, but we still had kids who were quite clearly gay.

The levels of hate were most definitely there! They were different in character, though. S28 had a heavy cooling effect that made it difficult for teachers to even engage with the subject and while that almost accidentally made it less of an active cultural battleground in some ways by removing the ability to officially contest it at all, we only need look at the rise of 'gay' as a nigh-ubiquitous general purpose negative epithet during the late 90's to get a temperature check.

Transphobia, where it manifested as an identifiably separate strain to Homophobia, was largely passed through an inherited US-centric filter of Jerry Springer and Ace Ventura alongside a cultural obsession with the idea of 'a man in a dress' being the height of British comedy. It took decades for us to finally shake their legacy.

EasternStandard · 03/02/2024 16:31

No one should feel manipulated into lying about biology

Adults can be honest and not create issues

SpicyMoth · 03/02/2024 16:34

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/02/2024 11:09

This. The reason the judge found that transphobia was a secondary motive is that the boy made dehumanising transphobic comments about Brianna on their private Snapchat, and the girl knew of this attitude and didn't discourage it. Just like the primary motive was her sadism which he also had to a lesser extent and also went along with, but the nature of a joint enterprise crime meant that these were considered the motives for both.

I think people would be shocked if they could see the private WhatsApps and Snapchats of many teens, and the dehumanising way they speak about people they see as "other" eg gay people, women, the disabled, people of other races etc. I imagine the other children he was chatting to were/are concerned that the police know what they themselves were saying.

I think the idea of these comments making him some sort of unusual monster just because he was "transphobic" and also committed a violent murder are naive and show a misplaced faith that the "nice" kids are the ones that go along with gender identity ideology.. The violent fantasies and dehumanisation of others in general are the issue.

"I think people would be shocked if they could see the private WhatsApps and Snapchats of many teens, and the dehumanising way they speak about people they see as "other""

To be completely honest, I don't understand why MNer's are so shocked at dehumanising language considering some of the things being said about poor/working class people over in the "don't have children if you can't afford them" thread.
People speaking in disgustingly dehumanising ways doesn't apply just to teenagers, and it certainly doesn't only apply to LGBT folks either.
Absolutely anyone can be "othered" for any number of reasons.

More on topic though, from my understanding Scarlett idolised and considered Brianna a friend and part of the supposed reasoning for her (Brianna's) horrific murder was that she (Scarlett) "didn't want Brianna to ever leave her" I believe I read in a few different reporting's.
That doesn't seem particularly transphobic to me, quite the opposite.
The boy? Sure, no arguments from me at all. What he said was transphobic and nasty.
But to frame the entire thing as motivated by transphobia doesn't seem correct to me - and frankly I'd bet life on the fact that he'd have been speaking in dehumanising ways about ANYONE they were planning to kill. That's just what people like that do, presumably to make the task easier to carry out.
The initial intended victim was not trans, the others on the list were not trans.
Scarlett, the main "driver" liked Brianna. The boy was given a shorter sentence for a reason, he was not the driving force, therefore the transphobia can't have been the main factor imo.
If I'm wrong, I'd love to be shown further reporting that has evidence that this senseless crime was in fact motivated by transphobia though.

ButterflyHatched · 03/02/2024 16:37

FriendOfTimo · 03/02/2024 16:12

Can you please stop making threads all about YOU Hatch? It’s really strange behaviour - makes me worry for your wellbeing.

You're welcome to continue to share your personal experiences of specific events and environments from your personal history that have and continue to directly affect you and give you insight into related situations which are currently major national news stories that inspire great interest and concern.

I will continue to do so as well, if you don't mind.

cakeorwine · 03/02/2024 16:42

ButterflyHatched · 03/02/2024 16:37

You're welcome to continue to share your personal experiences of specific events and environments from your personal history that have and continue to directly affect you and give you insight into related situations which are currently major national news stories that inspire great interest and concern.

I will continue to do so as well, if you don't mind.

Funny how when other people discuss their lived experiences, there is support.

But I guess some experiences are seen as more valid than others. For some reason

EasternStandard · 03/02/2024 16:44

cakeorwine · 03/02/2024 16:19

I don't think they are. But it's a good way of not listening to what someone is saying.

"If children grow up in an environment where they are, in private or even in public, told by adults that it's ok or even admirable to act in that way - and anyone who is able to access the internet or read the front page of a newspaper right now can't notsee that - then how can we expect them not to carry these things through into adulthood"

Exactly. Children pick up on attitudes and what they see. It's how boys can become sexist mysognists, racists develop racist attitudes. What they see and hear in society can feed into their behaviour.

People can share experiences but the idea that anyone who prefers biological truth over lies is not harming their dc or anyone else

I’d argue the opposite. We fail dc with genderism

FriendOfTimo · 03/02/2024 17:03

EasternStandard · 03/02/2024 16:31

No one should feel manipulated into lying about biology

Adults can be honest and not create issues

Yes.

Manipulation is a form of bullying too.

PaperWalkAndTalk · 03/02/2024 17:29

What people can see from a mile off is that the murder wasn't transphobic, but activists continue to try to make it such, and consequently think they can use the murder as a excuse to shut down the GC nature of MN.

ButterflyHatched · 03/02/2024 17:49

PaperWalkAndTalk · 03/02/2024 17:29

What people can see from a mile off is that the murder wasn't transphobic, but activists continue to try to make it such, and consequently think they can use the murder as a excuse to shut down the GC nature of MN.

"You both took part in a brutal and planned murder which was sadistic in nature and where a secondary motive was hostility towards Brianna because of her transgender identity."

Lemonlemonlemonapple · 03/02/2024 17:49

PronounssheRa · 02/02/2024 16:19

The judge determined that the murder is of "high seriousness" and that both defendants played in a key part in killing. So didn't go on to consider the sadistic motive or transphobic comments. However reading this mornings coverage it did seem the judge wasn't minded to ascribe a transphobic motive to the girl but may have had to consider this for the male. The judge says of this: “I don’t think I have sufficient weight to make a sure finding that Scarlett was transphobic. Where I am interested with her is the link with Eddie.”

“The judge determined that the murder is of "high seriousness" and that both defendants played in a key part in killing. So didn't go on to consider the sadistic motive or transphobic comments.”

Why post something so obviously untrue??

The judge’s discussion was broadcast live on television and was on endless repeat on the news yesterday.

She talked in detail about the sadistic nature of the murder and the evidence that there wasn’t just transphobia but that the murder was partly motivated by hostility to Brianna due to her transgender identity, and why both things were aggravating factors which applied to them both, and meant she had to give longer sentences.

To quote the judge:

“I therefore find that you both took part in a brutal and planned murder which was sadistic in nature and where a secondary motive was hostility towards Brianna because of her transgender identity”

The reporting related to the evidence of hostility to Brianna’s transgender identity has been very strange. This thread is full of comments by people saying that it had already been decided that it wasn’t a factor in the case, when that hadn’t been decided at all. The same has been said in the media.

It was always a decision for the judge to make yesterday.

During the live reporting I watched yesterday the reporter kept saying it wasn’t a factor, even while reporting that in court the prosecution were arguing that the evidence was clear that it was a motivation.

The part of Esther Ghey’s impact statement where she talked about the transphobia was also edited out and not reported in some of the news reports yesterday.

The reporter only stopped saying it wasn’t a motivation when the judge was explicit in her ruling that it was a part of the motivation.

The denial, minimisation, and widespread attempts to say it had already been dismissed as a factor have been very odd.

EasternStandard · 03/02/2024 17:51

The judge was excellent.

Still no one can ask others to lie to dc

bellac11 · 03/02/2024 17:53

The dad thing is concerning.

But coming back to the school issue, I really struggle to believe the new school didnt know about her background and why there was a transfer. Its hard work to get a transfer, papers,risk assessments and reports are needed.

Perhaps there is an explanation as to why that information wasnt shared or asked for or known about (theres always someone that knows something) or perhaps they did know and theres a misunderstanding about whether they knew or not

PronounssheRa · 03/02/2024 17:57

Lemonlemonlemonapple · 03/02/2024 17:49

“The judge determined that the murder is of "high seriousness" and that both defendants played in a key part in killing. So didn't go on to consider the sadistic motive or transphobic comments.”

Why post something so obviously untrue??

The judge’s discussion was broadcast live on television and was on endless repeat on the news yesterday.

She talked in detail about the sadistic nature of the murder and the evidence that there wasn’t just transphobia but that the murder was partly motivated by hostility to Brianna due to her transgender identity, and why both things were aggravating factors which applied to them both, and meant she had to give longer sentences.

To quote the judge:

“I therefore find that you both took part in a brutal and planned murder which was sadistic in nature and where a secondary motive was hostility towards Brianna because of her transgender identity”

The reporting related to the evidence of hostility to Brianna’s transgender identity has been very strange. This thread is full of comments by people saying that it had already been decided that it wasn’t a factor in the case, when that hadn’t been decided at all. The same has been said in the media.

It was always a decision for the judge to make yesterday.

During the live reporting I watched yesterday the reporter kept saying it wasn’t a factor, even while reporting that in court the prosecution were arguing that the evidence was clear that it was a motivation.

The part of Esther Ghey’s impact statement where she talked about the transphobia was also edited out and not reported in some of the news reports yesterday.

The reporter only stopped saying it wasn’t a motivation when the judge was explicit in her ruling that it was a part of the motivation.

The denial, minimisation, and widespread attempts to say it had already been dismissed as a factor have been very odd.

It was a direct lift from the Liverpool Echo reporting at the time, rather than something I made up. It is easy for things to get missed when reporters are live tweeting from court.

Topofthemountain · 03/02/2024 18:33

I therefore find that you both took part in a brutal and planned murder which was sadistic in nature and where a secondary motive was hostility towards Brianna because of her transgender identity

A secondary motive. Trans phobia had a role, but it was not the main motivation.

A child is dead, two more are locked up for a significant length of time. No doubt another child will be stabbed this weekend, just like those two boys in Bristol last week. Knife crime is off the scale, that's what needs addressing. How many more lives will be destroyed?

Lemonlemonlemonapple · 03/02/2024 18:34

Topofthemountain · 03/02/2024 18:33

I therefore find that you both took part in a brutal and planned murder which was sadistic in nature and where a secondary motive was hostility towards Brianna because of her transgender identity

A secondary motive. Trans phobia had a role, but it was not the main motivation.

A child is dead, two more are locked up for a significant length of time. No doubt another child will be stabbed this weekend, just like those two boys in Bristol last week. Knife crime is off the scale, that's what needs addressing. How many more lives will be destroyed?

More minimisation. This thread is ridiculous.

FriendOfTimo · 03/02/2024 18:36

https://bmaba.org.uk/verify/311040000000944501-2/

Dad Ratcliffe’s instructor registration with the* *British Martial Arts & Boxing Association is currently ‘expired or suspended’.

His gym offered classes for kids which is pretty fucking worrying, and potentially another safeguarding fail as it appears he had a CSA conviction about ten years ago (unless the news report is someone else with the same name, age and location).

Kyle Ratcliffe - British Martial Arts & Boxing Instructor National Records Database

Official instructor records from the British Martial Arts & Boxing Association (BMABA)

https://bmaba.org.uk/verify/311040000000944501-2/

PaperWalkAndTalk · 03/02/2024 18:37

ButterflyHatched · 03/02/2024 17:49

"You both took part in a brutal and planned murder which was sadistic in nature and where a secondary motive was hostility towards Brianna because of her transgender identity."

So why were there four boys who were not transgender on the kill list?

Lemonlemonlemonapple · 03/02/2024 18:39

PaperWalkAndTalk · 03/02/2024 18:37

So why were there four boys who were not transgender on the kill list?

Watch the judge’s ruling, posted up thread, and all those questions are answered.

WhyWayle · 03/02/2024 18:40

I thought the arrsest of a Kyle Ratcliffe was from last month, not 10 years ago?

PaperWalkAndTalk · 03/02/2024 18:42

Lemonlemonlemonapple · 03/02/2024 18:39

Watch the judge’s ruling, posted up thread, and all those questions are answered.

It is the continued desperation by a certain few to centre the entire case around the transgender status of the victim.

Topofthemountain · 03/02/2024 18:53

No it is not minimising. Knife crime is a major issue, kids are running around with knives, other kids then carry them with the misconception that they need it to protect themselves from the 'bad' kids who carry knives.

Nothing will ever improve until there is a real focus on tackling this. I will not put [innocent] victims of knife crime in a hierarchy.

Topofthemountain · 03/02/2024 19:02

If you are in Leeds and have the opportunity this month to go and see The Knife Angel please do. There is a link on this page to the main website and also other dates and locations.

news.leeds.gov.uk/news/knife-angel-starts-conversations-about-knife-crime-in-leeds

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