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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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28
loveanafter8 · 22/12/2023 12:36

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/12/2023 12:34

Everyone on this thread has treated Brianna as a human being.

The moment you refused to use her pronouns or acknowledge who she was you stopped treating her like a human being.

thirdfiddle · 22/12/2023 12:36

I'm reminded of when Jo Cox and David Amess died. As it should be, politicians from all walks dropped politics for a time and united in agreeing that their murders were atrocious and mourned them.
What didn't happen was parties in opposition to theirs pretending to agree with their politics, or their own parties using their deaths to try to force others others to agree with their politics.

RedToothBrush · 22/12/2023 12:37

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

How do you actually know this?

Being 'supportive' seems to only be affirmation only.

Yet we've already crossed that bridge in terms of understanding that affirmation only can be problematic.

The idea that you don't care because you don't support changing pronouns is pretty virtue signally and doesn't really address a whole bag of things. The catch all doesn't reflect reality of experience.

It is a deeply complex thing.

Yet again it's about simplifing things to the narrowest definitions and purely about identity.

There are people here with a huge breathe of experience and understanding on this subject...

NotBadConsidering · 22/12/2023 12:38

loveanafter8 · 22/12/2023 12:36

The moment you refused to use her pronouns or acknowledge who she was you stopped treating her like a human being.

What a truly despicable horrible lie, your agenda is absolutely disgusting.

nothingcomestonothing · 22/12/2023 12:39

loveanafter8 · 22/12/2023 12:36

The moment you refused to use her pronouns or acknowledge who she was you stopped treating her like a human being.

People who actually knew Brianna posted fond memories on Brianna's dad's Facebook page, using Brianna's original name and using male pronouns. I am being sincere when I say, I hope you haven't said this there too.

loveanafter8 · 22/12/2023 12:40

NotBadConsidering · 22/12/2023 12:38

What a truly despicable horrible lie, your agenda is absolutely disgusting.

You’re right, my ‘agenda’ is disgusting. The one where I ask you to not belittle who she was as a person is so foul. God I only hope I face justice for what I’ve done one day.

WarriorN · 22/12/2023 12:40

The moment you refused to use her pronouns or acknowledge who she was you stopped treating her like a human being.

This is insanely coercive.

loveanafter8 · 22/12/2023 12:40

nothingcomestonothing · 22/12/2023 12:39

People who actually knew Brianna posted fond memories on Brianna's dad's Facebook page, using Brianna's original name and using male pronouns. I am being sincere when I say, I hope you haven't said this there too.

You say this like they were right to do that? Deadnaming someone on their memorial page isn’t the flex you think it is.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/12/2023 12:41

I'm reminded of when Jo Cox and David Amess died. As it should be, politicians from all walks dropped politics for a time and united in agreeing that their murders were atrocious and mourned them.
What didn't happen was parties in opposition to theirs pretending to agree with their politics, or their own parties using their deaths to try to force others others to agree with their politics.

Excellent point. I think the reason this is different is the underlying ideology and how controlling its proponents are. They don't see it as a question of different personal beliefs. They see it as the only truth. And non believers must be shamed. It's religious.

RedToothBrush · 22/12/2023 12:41

loveanafter8 · 22/12/2023 12:40

You say this like they were right to do that? Deadnaming someone on their memorial page isn’t the flex you think it is.

Have you actually had a family member transition?

It's not that straightforward.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/12/2023 12:42

This is insanely coercive.

People aren't even using male pronouns here.

nothingcomestonothing · 22/12/2023 12:42

@FriendOfTimo sending Flowers.

NotBadConsidering · 22/12/2023 12:42

loveanafter8 · 22/12/2023 12:40

You’re right, my ‘agenda’ is disgusting. The one where I ask you to not belittle who she was as a person is so foul. God I only hope I face justice for what I’ve done one day.

No, your agenda in how you’re going about it. It’s despicable.

flaffydaffy · 22/12/2023 12:44

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/12/2023 12:42

This is insanely coercive.

People aren't even using male pronouns here.

Yeah they go to great lengths to avoid doing so because they know it would look terrible if they said "he". Why don't you just say "he"? If you believe so strongly what you believe? Is it because you recognise it would be needlessly cruel?

loveanafter8 · 22/12/2023 12:44

RedToothBrush · 22/12/2023 12:41

Have you actually had a family member transition?

It's not that straightforward.

Yes I have, and it’s weird how I accepted and loved her because it makes zero difference to how I view her as a human being

nothingcomestonothing · 22/12/2023 12:45

loveanafter8 · 22/12/2023 12:40

You say this like they were right to do that? Deadnaming someone on their memorial page isn’t the flex you think it is.

Jesus fucking Christ it's not a 'flex', what is wrong with you? You are berating women here for doing something people who knew and cared about Brianna did. Because you've decided you are the arbiter of what is proper to say. Even though people who knew and cared about Brianna are saying different, you still think you're right.

WarriorN · 22/12/2023 12:45

Who on earth has "belittled" Brianna?

Every single poster has expressed horror at how devastating this has been.

Brianna was clearly a lovely person who wouldn't hurt a fly.

I suggest you step away from this thread as there's clearly something else going on for you to be so inaccurately emotive, and being on social media right now may not be ideal for you.

nothingcomestonothing · 22/12/2023 12:46

flaffydaffy · 22/12/2023 12:44

Yeah they go to great lengths to avoid doing so because they know it would look terrible if they said "he". Why don't you just say "he"? If you believe so strongly what you believe? Is it because you recognise it would be needlessly cruel?

Same reason that if I go to a church wedding I don't heckle, or wear a Bad Religion t-shirt. You can respect others beliefs without sharing them.

loveanafter8 · 22/12/2023 12:47

nothingcomestonothing · 22/12/2023 12:45

Jesus fucking Christ it's not a 'flex', what is wrong with you? You are berating women here for doing something people who knew and cared about Brianna did. Because you've decided you are the arbiter of what is proper to say. Even though people who knew and cared about Brianna are saying different, you still think you're right.

I would ask the same of someone who tried to use “but people who knew Brianna used her deadname” in an argument. Just because someone who knew her says it, doesn’t make it right.

WarriorN · 22/12/2023 12:48

I'm also finding the term "deadname" extremely inappropriate in this thread. Quite sickening actually. This is all about you and your agenda.

nothingcomestonothing · 22/12/2023 12:48

loveanafter8 · 22/12/2023 12:47

I would ask the same of someone who tried to use “but people who knew Brianna used her deadname” in an argument. Just because someone who knew her says it, doesn’t make it right.

YOU have decided it's wrong! It's not up to you! If Brianna's family are ok with it, who are you to police it?

flaffydaffy · 22/12/2023 12:48

nothingcomestonothing · 22/12/2023 12:45

Jesus fucking Christ it's not a 'flex', what is wrong with you? You are berating women here for doing something people who knew and cared about Brianna did. Because you've decided you are the arbiter of what is proper to say. Even though people who knew and cared about Brianna are saying different, you still think you're right.

You don't know anything about those people and their relationship with Brianna do. Her mum says "she" so why not use that as a guide?

loveanafter8 · 22/12/2023 12:49

WarriorN · 22/12/2023 12:48

I'm also finding the term "deadname" extremely inappropriate in this thread. Quite sickening actually. This is all about you and your agenda.

I must say, your desire to deflect from your ignorance is interesting to see.

loveanafter8 · 22/12/2023 12:50

nothingcomestonothing · 22/12/2023 12:48

YOU have decided it's wrong! It's not up to you! If Brianna's family are ok with it, who are you to police it?

Have they come to you personally and told you that? Have you seen them say that explicitly?

Peasandsweetcorns · 22/12/2023 12:52

RedToothBrush · 22/12/2023 10:28

I view it differently.

There's transphobia in there. But it's not the motivation.
The more disturbing bits are about the obsessions and disturbing access to content which isn't appropriate for children (and in some cases even adults).
That was the driver, not the fact Brianna was trans.

That's not playing transphobia down. That's trying to make sure the driving factors and concerns aren't ignored because everyone is busy shouting transphobia.

And with regards to the victim being trans there are comorbidity issues.
It sounds like the pair tried to lure someone else first but it failed. They read the situation as not being right for some reason.
Brianna appears not to have done the same.

Brianna desperate for friends formed one with a girl who was giving everyone else a vibe. She'd be excluded from previous schools and the other kids were keeping their distance. There was awareness she had a 'kill list' from 2020.

Was Brianna's social isolation a factor? Did Brianna lack skills to read the situation as being not healthy? Was Brianna desperate for friends and ignored instincts? Was this because trans or for other reasons?

It's important to not dismiss the other reason part. If kids identifying as trans have a really high rate of poor social skills then there's an argument that they should receive support online with those needs rather than it just being labelled as part of being trans.

The fact it's easier to transition than access even minimal support from CAHMS is relevant here. It's also relevant that there is a massive politically led drive to try and say that there should be no mental health elements to transition/ concerns about mental health despite even Stonewall dubious surveys pointing out alarmingly high disability levels which suggest something else is going on. Trans becomes the way to refuse help in a socially pressured and enabled way rather than looking at actual need.

It becomes 'i don't need to see a therapist because they are transphobic' because they ask difficult questions. That in itself is potentially worrying avoidant type behaviour. Why don't you want to confront certain issues?

It might be hard for people to understand that transphobia isn't a driving factor. But this isn't downplaying it. It's highlighting the more significant elements correctly. It's also highlighting issues which made being trans not the reason they were the victim but why co morbid risk factors may be important to kids who identify as trans for a variety of reasons.

In terms of sentencing, I'm not sure why looking at transphobia really matters. The significant factor is the total lack of remorse and how it was all treated as a joke. It was a game. And that in itself probably should merit a harsher sentence without the need to consider transphobia. It was the coldness across the board which would have been applied to any victim. Otherwise you end up with a situation where if the victim isn't trans their life is deemed as less important even though the aggravating factor is a fascination with killing for both. It is the planning and premeditation that's the real concern. Unlike many other child on child crimes. There is no background of conflict. There is no mistaken identity. There is no clear background of targeted emotional bullying directly at Brianna which escalated (the transphobic comments were not used TO Brianna. They were used about Brianna which makes it slightly more difficult). Indeed the opposite seems true - Brianna thought girl x was a friend and the girl seems to have liked Brianna.

And then there was the subsequent attempts at cover up which included messaging Brianna. It's the coldness and calculating that makes it different to 'just another kid murdered in the park' story. Yet the focus is simply on Brianna's identity which isn't anymore right than accusations of transphobia.

That's my point really. The need to put into context and for it to be measured. We have to understand in full, not just look at singular elements. But how they result in a perfect storm and how you can act to stop similar storms via multiple approaches. As singular approaches have more chance of failure in the future.

RedToothBrush: “In terms of sentencing, I'm not sure why looking at transphobia really matters. The significant factor is the total lack of remorse and how it was all treated as a joke. It was a game. And that in itself probably should merit a harsher sentence without the need to consider transphobia.”

It matters because the law requires hostility to transgender identity to be considered as part of sentencing. The judges decision won’t be known until sentencing in February.

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