Guilty verdict in Brianna Ghey case

[RoyalCorgi]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/20/brianna-ghey-found-guilty-murder

Not a surprise - it felt very clear-cut.

Bunb

Sorry, posted too soon. Anyway let's keep in mind forum guidelines.

You can be respectful and say still difficult things that people don't necessarily want to hear in a way that isn't necessarily the way that is universally approved of.

They are not mutually exclusive concepts. Nor does it mean someone doesn't have a point if they aren't towing the approved language.

Indeed the time we need to discuss issues most is where there is this type of difference of opinion precisely because there is clearly a massive issue.

If it's not trying to get the police involved, it's trying to throw the cliche gotchas out there and when that doesn't work it goes to personal attacks.

Some of these posters need to have a look at the talk guidelines. Personal attacks aren't allowed on Mumsnet, we are expected to be civil in our disagreements.

Thanks @popebishop

The way so many grown adults are fighting so hard to not be respectful of Brianna under the guise that they’re being forced into an agenda by transgender people is actually disgusting.

I hope you feel the shame you deserve to feel for disregarding and disrespecting Brianna so openly and publicly.

You can be respectful and say still difficult things that people don't necessarily want to hear in a way that isn't necessarily the way that is universally approved of.

They are not mutually exclusive concepts. Nor does it mean someone doesn't have a point if they aren't towing the approved language.

Yes, exactly. Why do some posters want so much to make women say things in the exact way they want them to? It's quite telling how coercive it is.

So why did you agree with a post which told another poster to "grow the fuck up", which is a personal attack? Or at least, hardly civil.

Posting this with the intent on continuing the discussion re: minors who kill.

My friend’s murder was a long time ago (1999, trial in 2000) but Timo’s death and the circumstances around it altered the course of many peoples lives, including mine.

I can’t claim to know exactly what Brianna’s family are going through but I do know a little bit of what it’s like to experience a profound personal loss in the context of a high profile criminal trial (albeit in a time before social media) and I’ve witnessed how painful it is to lose one’s beloved child* to pointless, gratuitous, violence and how that pain continues to ebb and flow in the years and decades after, long after those convicted have resumed their lives.

As posted upthread, the National Front claimed the murderers were motivated by racism but there is absolutely no evidence that race was a factor.
It’s my belief that one of the 16 year olds (referred to as Juvenile A in most news reports) would’ve killed someone at some point, he already had a long track record of violence and according to evidence heard in court, was the main driver of the group dynamic that unfolded that night.

*Timo was 24, his murderers were 21, 19, 18, 16, 16 & 14. One of 16 year olds was a girl.

As with Brianna’s murderers, the 6 were charged with murder via ‘Joint Enterprise’ and mounted a ‘Cut Throat’ defence (all admitted being present but all blamed each other).
The minors were granted anonymity during the trial (referred to as Juveniles A, B & C) but were named a couple of months after the verdict.

All were given life sentences for murder with a concurrent term for the attempted murder of Timo’s friend, Gabe.
The juveniles were sentenced ‘At Her Majesty’s Pleasure’ with a minimum tariff of 12 years, the adults were given a minimum term of 16 years.

Almost 25 years on and Timo is still missed every single day.

Verdict article: www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/teenage-gang-threw-student-to-his-death-for-fun-281642.html

Observer long read, from just after the trial (before the juveniles were named): amp.theguardian.com/theobserver/2000/jun/04/life1.lifemagazine8

Court of Appeal ruling on naming the juveniles: news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/849092.stm

From 2002, publicity for a BBC documentary ‘Murder on Hungerford Bridge’: news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1975102.stm

Timo’s mum, Linda, talking about her book:
www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/he-much-offer-not-come-2419722

The book:
www.amazon.co.uk/Losing-Timo-Linda-Baxter/dp/1870206665

20 year anniversary, Vice: www.vice.com/en/article/a3xazz/south-bank-skateboard-graveyard-timo-baxter

From October this year: https://www.surfertoday.com/skateboarding/the-story-of-the-london-skateboard-graveyard/amp

Growing the fuck up is aimed at all the people screaming 'transphobia'. Not one individual. Hope that helps.

What is your approach to people like Brianna who have NOT been killed? Trans women or trans girls who have not been killed. Generally positive/generally negative? What's your general attitude towards them?

Insulting several posters at once isn't any different from doing it one at a time.

Yes, exactly. Why do some posters want so much to make women say things in the exact way they want them to? It's quite telling how coercive it is.

Indeed. The absolute insistence that unless you use one particular word then you’re not allowed to talk about ways future crimes could be prevented.

It doesn't really help but still.

I know things are being frustrating with all the appeals to emotional and emotional blackmail but we've done that to death before and it's still come out that people have had legitimate concerns well ... Legitimised.

Through not dropping to this level and just staying focused on the points.

Do get over yourself. People are entitled to their own views and opinions. We're not quite a Nazi state... yet.

As always, if anyone sees a post which breaks the talk guidelines just use the “report” function. MN are generally quite quick to respond.

Anyone who is unhappy with MN moderation policies are free to find somewhere else to chat online. Twitter is pretty fun, or so I hear.

Thank you for your post @FriendOfTimo, I'm so sorry for your loss.

Yes, if anyone feels any post from either "side" here is in breach of talk guidelines, please report it.

There is no point in discussing this because every single point gets derailed and explicated to see how much of a transphobe the writer might be and blaming them for all of society's ills.

All they are interested in is forcing people to say Brianna was a girl or woman. Absolutely nothing else.

There is no point in discussing this because every single point gets derailed and explicated to see how much of a transphobe the writer might be and blaming them for all of society's ills.

All they are interested in is forcing people to say Brianna was a girl or woman. Absolutely nothing else.

Yes, it really is that simple.

Make your point and don't get sucked in by it.

This is an important conversation and I hope I'm not alone in wanting it to stand.

The last thread I wanted shut down because the trial was still ongoing but thats no longer relevant.

This is an important conversation and I hope I'm not alone in wanting it to stand.

You're not.

BREAKING NEWS: human being asks other human being to treat a third human being as exactly that, a human being.

Everyone on this thread has treated Brianna as a human being.